censorship Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 censorship (and, to a lesser extent, bees earlier) do you really believe that most people have time off at christmas and easter to take part in/glorify some religious practice of some sort? Yep, I know they are historically religious festivals but ffs they are just a holiday period now unless you are part of the ever more dwindling tiny percentage of the population who believe there is a god. Hey, if that's you I'm not having a go, believe in what you like as long as you do preach to me or try and regress society back a hundred or two (or more) years to suit your interpretation of a story book. Of course if you don't believe most people take time off at christmas and easter for this purpose, I'm don't understand your point so perhaps you could explain in a bit more detail? It doesn't matter what people actually do with the holidays they get at Easter and Christmas. My point is the majority of employers in Britain choose to recognise the Christian religious festivals of Easter and Christmas as holidays and shut down. That means that non-Christians are forced to take the holiday as well, even though the 'Christian' workers are probably spending the day in front of the TV, getting drunk, shouting at the kids and scratching their arses rather than worshipping. Those holidays are largely secular now, but are rooted in religion. That being the case, why should we force someone of a non-Christian religion to abandon their traditions and culture when we insist they live with traditions and culture rooted in Christianity? That was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 come off it censorship. Are you saying the non-"christians" want less holidays? Yeah - right! Those holidays are largely secular now, but are rooted in religion.Agreed , as I think I previously pointed out....However, if we did not take time off at Christmas, it would be at some other time. Do you really think having a holiday equates with the forced wearing of the burqa? Of course you want to make a connection to try to support your tenuous link but, hey, I for one don't see any connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I don't recall expression an opinion either way if it is wrong or right. Perhaps you could read my post properly and not come out with patronising stuff like "I'm sure you can understand".......I can't apologise. When you start talking about 'detriment' to a society my first assumption is to think I have to converse with someone who only has populist attitudes to these matters. Both the french government and (ok, a generalisation) french society believe that if you want to live here, you fit into the french way of doing things. If you do, you will be welcome and if you don't you won't. ( Not a bad idea for comeovers now I think of it). Of course, should you be of a mind, you can argue until the cows come home what the french way is but one think that's for sure is the attempt of a minority religion to permanently change western values. The british appear to be accepting these changes and the french don't. They believe that such changes are a detriment and perhaps I could say (if I was a patonsing git) "I'm sure you can understand that". Ah, so it is your opinion that the wearing of burkhas is a deteriment to French society, based on the assumption that you think most people want others to conform and integrate and think that such people should do so. That's all that you have explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
censorship Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 censorship - There's a big part of your estimate of 2000 right wingers around here then It isn't 'my' estimate, it is the estimate of the French Interior Minister, and it isn't of right wing voters, but of women who actually wear the burka. The population of France is in excess of 62 million, which, I think, shows what a non-issue this is. My view on this is not to do with whether the burka is right or wrong, good or bad, but that if I was French I would be ashamed by my government trying to distract the population from its real problems by targeting what amounts to a tiny percentage of the population and saying 'Look, they're different, it must be their fault. Let's force them to abandon their beliefs'. It is state-sponsored intolerance and is whipping up utterly out of proportion racial tension for no better reason than helping the political pigs keep their snouts firmly in the trough. Anyone who thinks they are fighting the good fight to protect the West from the menace of Islam is deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
censorship Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 come off it censorship. Are you saying the non-"christians" want less holidays? Yeah - right! No, I am questioning why we think it is appropriate to force on them traditions based on our, admittedly old, beliefs, whilst banning them from following theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 LDV I have not expressed an opinion either way on my opinion on burqa wearing. You said my first assumptionbest not assume eh? Ah, so it is your opinion that the wearing of burkhas is a deteriment to French society, based on the assumption that you think most people want others to conform and integrate and think that such people should do so. That's all that you have explained. I said, y'know, reading my earlier post, "Both the french government and (ok, a generalisation) french society believe" not what I believe and their you go again (see quote) "based on an assumption". Best not assume eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 We are going round in circles here No, I am questioning why we think it is appropriate to force on them traditions based on our, admittedly old, beliefs, whilst banning them from following theirs. I understood your post first time but I'm still wondering how you can really equate "forcing" someone to have a holiday and burqa wearing. Of course, I hope I have not given the impression that burqa wearing is the only problem of a lot of ordinary people seem to perceive. The militant muslim minority are on a self-confessed mission to change the west. If they ever succeed (and they might just,one day, based on demographics), I can't really see the non-militant majority of reasonable muslims then objecting. Can you? This thread was originally about an apparent desire of minority religious groups changing established reasonable practices in the british isles. They appear to want to change us remember? stopping swimming lessons in ramadan?. I don't recall them mentioning wanting to continue working over christmas but you now have a desire to then make that a tenuous connection to burqa wearing What next? The french are resisting such changes to their society and do you really believe that they are using this as a distracting technique? Is that your opinion or has the French Interior Minister said it? What evidence you you have of this other than your opinion? I agree that the burqa issue, per se, is a non-issue but I think that most people know radical islam will not stop there and the french appear to want to make a stand. I can understand that desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Ok having read more on the french issue with the burka it seems I was wrong in that bit, but I still stand by my statement that the wearing of it is the same security issue as someone wearing a motorcycle helmet whilst entering a premisis such as a bank airport etc. LDV although I can get the gist of what you are saying, it suprises me that you stick up for the wearing of this item that has roots and still has a role in the supression of women, I suppose you would also say that female circumcision is ok. But if you say that you think we should not try to stop this then do you also agree we should not comment on other common practices of that religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 LDV I have not expressed an opinion either way on my opinion on burqa wearing. You said my first assumptionbest not assume eh? Ah, so it is your opinion that the wearing of burkhas is a deteriment to French society, based on the assumption that you think most people want others to conform and integrate and think that such people should do so. That's all that you have explained. I said, y'know, reading my earlier post, "Both the french government and (ok, a generalisation) french society believe" not what I believe and their you go again (see quote) "based on an assumption". Best not assume eh? Nothing wrong with offering assumptions, if you make it clear that is what you are doing. You have, however, tended to present your views as the truth in respect of what popular opinions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Ok having read more on the french issue with the burka it seems I was wrong in that bit, but I still stand by my statement that the wearing of it is the same security issue as someone wearing a motorcycle helmet whilst entering a premisis such as a bank airport etc. I agree. Therefore, banks and airports should be able to ask for the burkhas removal. LDV although I can get the gist of what you are saying, it suprises me that you stick up for the wearing of this item that has roots and still has a role in the supression of women, I suppose you would also say that female circumcision is ok. But if you say that you think we should not try to stop this then do you also agree we should not comment on other common practices of that religion?Read my comments in earlier threads. This isn't a simply matter of stopping women wearing something they don't want to wear. A lot of women want to wear it, however, oppressive they realise (or do not realise) it is. The State (and nobody else) has the right to interfere with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 You still don't know what my personal views are as I haven't said one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Ps there is huge support (some reports say over 70%) of banning the burqa in public here in France. They simply don't want french society to be changed by a minority for absolutely no-one's good and to most people's detriment. I have to say I can see their point.... Liberté, égalité, fraternité! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 A lot of women want to wear it Conversely a lot of women need to wear it! To me its sort of like admitting that you married a complete minger - stick a bag on her head - cut a slot in the front so she can see - and unless she's a great big fatty bum bum nobody else will ever notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Quite so Declan but that tripartite motto only dated back to the 1800s. I think a lot of french believe religious 'laws'/customs from about 12 centuries previous to that post-Napoleonic era don't come under it's banner. Yet again, I think I understand where they are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombay Bad Boy Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Play Boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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