Blair's Book

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well capitalist practices are conducted by private businesses but they also make use and depend on what can be called state socialist policies and practices. It isn't really a capitalist system.

I wondered whether you were talking about how capitalism, without any interference in the market, is this best form you talk about.

And what do you mean by socialism? I just need a better idea of what you're talking about.

But I would certainly disagree with your assessments of capitalism being best if it means for you the current manner in which the economy operates.

[jimbms]

The main point LDV is no matter what view anyone puts across you are such a pedantic git that you will find one little point in it just to disagree with even if 99% of it is correct.

[spook]

Well capitalist practices are conducted by private businesses but they also make use and depend on what can be called state socialist policies and practices. It isn't really a capitalist system.

I wondered whether you were talking about how capitalism, without any interference in the market, is this best form you talk about.

And what do you mean by socialism? I just need a better idea of what you're talking about.

But I would certainly disagree with your assessments of capitalism being best if it means for you the current manner in which the economy operates.

 

 

To me a socialist is someone who thinks that everybody should have pretty much the same, that people with a few bob should be made to give more than the cant work (as well as the wont work) need just to get by.

 

I don’t like socialists or socialism.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The main point LDV is no matter what view anyone puts across you are such a pedantic git that you will find one little point in it just to disagree with even if 99% of it is correct.

I suspect you have a problem with understanding the issues judging from your usual use of pointless and irrelevant quotes. If I don't understand what Spooks means then I can hardly reply. Unless you think you know and can explain.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

To me a socialist is someone who thinks that everybody should have pretty much the same, that people with a few bob should be made to give more than the cant work (as well as the wont work) need just to get by.

 

I don’t like socialists or socialism.

Socialism is (or used to be) a political movement or thinking whereby the means of production are taken out of a small minorities private hands and placed in the control and disposal of the whole of society. That's why your comments on socialism seem to me to be confused.

 

Are you opposed to the NHS and all state welfare? It would be interesting if you truly believe in capitalism, rather than simply maintaining the status quo.

[spook]

To me a socialist is someone who thinks that everybody should have pretty much the same, that people with a few bob should be made to give more than the cant work (as well as the wont work) need just to get by.

 

I don’t like socialists or socialism.

Socialism is (or used to be) a political movement or thinking whereby the means of production are taken out of a small minorities private hands and placed in the control and disposal of the whole of society. That's why your comments on socialism seem to me to be confused.

 

Are you opposed to the NHS and all state welfare? It would be interesting if you truly believe in capitalism, rather than simply maintaining the status quo.

 

So socialism is communism in your book. Well I like communists even less than I like socialists.

 

Having things that everybody needs like s NHS given by the government is ok but I don't think much beyond the essent5ials should be given by the NHS. Same with state welfare. All the state should deliver are the bare essentials. Nowt else. Let people dog paddle or swim. Dont let them drown, dont give them water wings. If they want water wings let them get them for thesmselves.

[jimbms]

LDV you are just proving what I said, nothing is black and white, not everything has to follow the text book example, things like capitalism, socialism and communism can and do live side by side and integrated together, you do not have to have clear boundries, the whole point about virtually all societies is that people for the most can pick bits of each system as the feel like doing and live their life quite happily like this. Just for once accept that someones views and ideals do not conform to what you see and expect and allow them to be individuals even if it does not compute in your idealistic mind. Our lifestyle is about as far from vanilla as you can get and would freak a lot out but it works for us and has done for 28yrs, therefore for us it is perfect and the same happens to life and society in general. It is about time you stopped fussing about how other people live and think and got on with your own life.

[Chinahand]

I think Spook dislikes "from each according to their ability to each according to their need".

 

I'd say that bald statement is communism - though I suspect LDV would add it to the anarchist pantheon - honest question - is anarchism a way to achieve communism?

 

When a government decides what people's abilities and needs are that is socialism. I don't think you necessarily need state control of the means of production for socialism - but the state does provide services - the level of this intervention varies and certainly many left wingers beleive state ownership is necessary, but its a spectrum and many socialists are fine with privatized industries.

 

I think people's attitudes to socialism depends on the level of state control.

 

When the government is democratic and provides reasonable social welfare; while maintaining the impartiality of the law and defence of the state, most people are willing to let a certain amount of socialism into their lives.

 

They may be taxed to pay for the relief of others less fortunate, but there but for the grace of God go I etc so it isn't so much socialism as insurance - though some people will will be made to pay more than others, and some people pay none, but as long as the contribution is reasonable, and the tax base broad most people put up with it. Though defining reasonable isn't easy!

 

But when the state starts to control more and more it becomes increasingly inefficient and brutal in its removal of autonomy from people. Then socialism turns into tyranny.

 

LDV - you feel there is a far better way to organize the world than capitalism - I'm not sure quite how you hold this belief: you definitely don't have any evidence for it - and you are so critical of religious believers!

 

My attitude is that certainly alot of people's working life is as uninspiring as can be - my idea of progress is to allow people to achieve more from their lives, but quite frankly I can't see how you can easily change the reality of drugery - that has been the history of man's lot on this planet and I definitely do think the drudgery of the working classes now is a lot lot better than the drudgery of a Medieval serf or a Vicotrian mill worker.

 

Our ascent from subsistence has been based around getting good ideas done, and capitalism for all its flaws is, as far as I can see, the best way to get good ideas done.

 

As Jimbms says currently its a messy compromise with government interventions, protectionism, regulation etc. Certainly you could change many things - biases against the 3rd world in trade etc - to improve things, but I find the idea that there is some Nivana for us to follow LDV into is palpable bull.

 

He's an idealist and full of youthful certainty - but I don't think he's a clue how to change the world - nor does any other anachist. Abolish money - you might as well aspire to abolishing the colour red.

[mæŋksmən]

whats wrong with the colour red, thought you were a china lover.

Actually china sounds much nicer than red china, dont suppose sematics bothers the missing dead monks.

 

State re-education , the concept just grabs you right by the balls dunnit, then shoots you in the head when the cameras stop rolling, and the missing become the lesson to those left.

 

Whose for living side by side with china, come on hands up.

[Terse]

I don't think much

How true.

[P.K.]

Our ascent from subsistence has been based around getting good ideas done, and capitalism for all its flaws is, as far as I can see, the best way to get good ideas done.

 

Rather more important than "getting good ideas done" is having the good ideas in the first place! Religion is a classic. Get holy and you eat for free - what a quality move.

 

One of the problems of the modern workplace is motivation and in my experience UK management are just awful. Worse than useless in fact. Then you get the classic management vs leadership spiral. Managers are easy to make via training, leaders are very much harder to produce. Some would argue impossible. What you actually need is someone who is both.

 

Like Tony Blair...

[mæŋksmən]

You will have someones metaphorical eye out PK, lashing metaphorical hooks like that about.

[spook]

Our ascent from subsistence has been based around getting good ideas done, and capitalism for all its flaws is, as far as I can see, the best way to get good ideas done.

 

Rather more important than "getting good ideas done" is having the good ideas in the first place! Religion is a classic. Get holy and you eat for free - what a quality move.

 

One of the problems of the modern workplace is motivation and in my experience UK management are just awful. Worse than useless in fact. Then you get the classic management vs leadership spiral. Managers are easy to make via training, leaders are very much harder to produce. Some would argue impossible. What you actually need is someone who is both.

 

Like Tony Blair...

 

We need a blair like a fish needs a bicycle with an ashtray on it.

[spook]

I think Spook dislikes "from each according to their ability to each according to their need".

 

I don’t dislike that as long as its dealing with real needs. Needs to survive and not needs as in wants.

 

A person needs to be housed, or at least sheltered from the elements. A person needs to be fed, at least provided with what he needs to eat to live. A person needs to be clothed. At least clothed to match the weather and where he lives. A person dosnt need a television, a fridge, a car, flash trainers, holidays, fags and booze.

 

Taxing peoples wages at a rate that people can afford so as to provide for the needs of the wont or cant work is one thing.

 

Taxing peoples wages to deliver the wants of those who cant or wont work, well that’s another thing altogether. That’s just spreading one mans wages around to others and thats worng.

 

What I DO think is wrong is what next door are up to, borrowing billions and giving it away as foreign aid. That money flow should stop, or at least be big time reduced and what is borrowed diverted to Britains Island communties, ours especially.

[mæŋksmən]

Amen to that brother spook.