jimbms Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 As I said, show me your logic that it does not exist. The burden of proof is on those who make the claim/s. I haven't made any claims. You did, you said it does not exist, I never said it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mæŋksmən Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 You would be the first to either prove or disprove his existance if you could, no matter who has the burden of proof, semantics are the only eternal reality of this thread. THE BOLDED. put that in your mental filofax, quite simply its sublime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 put that in your mental filofax, quite simply its sublime. I would rather be in sub space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 An interesting, thoughtful post, Credente. If you've found Christianity arrogant and Muslims uncompromising do you have any more positive descriptions of other religions? I suppose I can understand why religions are uncompromising - they believe what they believe and can't change it just because people want to. Though I am always fascinated by how individuals of a faith can have vastly different interpretations of their religion - from biblical inerrency, to the mush of the CofE where Hell is just absence of God with hardly a gnashed tooth in sight! I've friends who have moved about on that scale starting of wishy washing and ending up terrifyingly fundamentalist. Have you read the Daoist texts - the Dao De Jing and the Zhuangzi? I am not a religious Daoist and not a fan of interpretations of the Dao as a star wars like Force, but love its philosophy and can relate to a religion whose sacred text tells you it cannot explain the Dao and nothing can! This is one of my favourite verses: Cultivate Virtue in your person, And it becomes a genuine part of you. Cultivate it in the family, And it will abide. Cultivate it in the community, And it will live and grow. Cultivate it in the state, And it will flourish abundantly. Cultivate it in the world, And it will become universal. Hence, a person must be judged as a person, A family as family; A community as community; A state as state; The world as world. How do I know about the world? By what is within me. This is John CH Wu's translation of chapter 54 of the Dao De Jing - unfortunately the original text doesn't really say the last two lines which I think are the most beautiful part of the piece, but still the poetic licence isn't too far off! At the same time, that 'force' does impact on our lives from time to time - its almost as if the edge of some vast curtain is lifted and we see just the tiniest glimmer of the light beyond. I'm intrigued what you mean by the above - are you talking about occassional feelings of spirituality felt at sunsets, or Christenings, or Funerals? Or something more? I am in awe of nature and the world - but have never felt any vast curtain lifting - though I've been deeply affected doing things as trivial as watching ants to walking under a redwood tree to watching the multitudes on the Great Wall to looking through a telescope at the Andromeda Galaxy. I just see these feeling as a perfectly natural outcome of the fact we know so little about the universe and are awed when we are made to confront that. I've never felt any communion with any supernatural beyond though - I don't think there is a non-mundane bone in my body; I've no belief in souls or Heavens or judgement. After you die you rot, pure and simple. It makes you want to get something out of life, but I get no sense of religiousity out of it. What happens when your curtain lifts? And do you think there is any realm of the dead to pass onto? I'm sure LDV would ask you if you have any evidence for such a thing - I believe there is none whatsoever, but it's interesting hearing what others think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted September 17, 2010 Author Share Posted September 17, 2010 I'm sorry that you appear to be unable to grasp the concept of 'I believe that...'That you have made a judgement as what you think is true. Is this not right? Are you applying a new meaning to the term? In the meantime I have suggested, from my own experiences and studies, the possibility of there being an external force in the universe that is presently beyond our ability to identify, define or understand.It is a possibility. It might be the case. But there is no indication that it is the case. I can no more prove that it exists than you can prove that it does not. Again, you're the one making the claim. You need to provide for why you believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mæŋksmən Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 put that in your mental filofax, quite simply its sublime. I would rather be in sub space Funny shit you and LDV being on the same side, and still managing to squabble. Chinahand is delivering his insults much more subtly aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 put that in your mental filofax, quite simply its sublime. I would rather be in sub space Funny shit you and LDV being on the same side, and still managing to squabble. Chinahand is delivering his insults much more subtly aswell. You deluded boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted September 17, 2010 Author Share Posted September 17, 2010 As I said, show me your logic that it does not exist. The burden of proof is on those who make the claim/s. I haven't made any claims. You did, you said it does not exist, I never said it did. No I NEVER did! I would say that Christian God does not exist. Quite concern of that. As for some being or intelligence behind the universe. Might be possible. But there is nothing that would lead me to that conclusion. If there is good evidence then please provide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 I'm sorry that you appear to be unable to grasp the concept of 'I believe that...' In essence, I'm sure we're all well aware that there are many things about our lives and about our surroundings that, at the moment, defy rational explanation. ... In the meantime I have suggested, from my own experiences and studies, the possibility of there being an external force in the universe that is presently beyond our ability to identify, define or understand. I have not suggested that this bears any relation to the somewhat superstitious beliefs about a god, or gods who intervene in our daily lives. I believe that this 'force' has no interest or concerns about us or our rather insignificant little planet and that, therefore, any effect it does have on it is entirely unintentional and random. I can no more prove that it exists than you can prove that it does not. I do have to say I am more in agreement with LDV than you on this. LDV isn't asking you to prove or disprove anything, he's asking why you believe it. What this believe is based upon. Really all you are saying is "we don't understand the universe, but I guess something intelligent - inhabits, and possibly controls, it." I think you are talking about more than other intelligent alien races in this - I admit I could be putting words in your mouth and you've been circumspect in what you've said, but I suspect you think the universe may be controlled for a purpose - though one entirely diconnected from humanity. I don't think it is wrong or impolite to ask why you hold such a belief - surely you'll admit you have no evidence for it. You've got your curtain lifting, but why do you think that leads to an, if not supernatural at least, unwordly intelligence rather than your own psychology. Gut feel is a perfectly honest answer, but it is left hanging in the air unsupported, when all we really have is ignorance. Why therefore make any claims at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Paul - Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 Truth is a three-edged sword. One side is your truth, the other side is their truth, and the third side is the truth. Babylon 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 As I said, show me your logic that it does not exist. The burden of proof is on those who make the claim/s. I haven't made any claims. You did, you said it does not exist, I never said it did. No I NEVER did! I would say that Christian God does not exist. Quite concern of that. As for some being or intelligence behind the universe. Might be possible. But there is nothing that would lead me to that conclusion. If there is good evidence then please provide it. But I never said it did exist I said it may exist If there is good evidence it does not exist then please provide it otherwise we must assume logically it is a strong possibility but not a definate. You can only prove it is not or is you cannot prove a probability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted September 17, 2010 Author Share Posted September 17, 2010 I do nlt believe that The Lord would make that request of me. I do believe that satan might apear to be The Lord. In either case personally I would not for the reasons that I have described and at a possible price that I have described. Just as The Lord suffered for all mankind as a part of the trinity I love my family so much that I would risk my self on their behalf. I would ask forgiveness of The Lord but I would have no option. None olf us are perfect. We can all only do our best. maybe in that I would be found wanting. I would hope not but when love is concerned you must put yourself third. Remember JOY, Jesus, Others and finally You. God made Abraham think that he should kill his son. It appears to be in his character to ask such things.But his character is not that important in discussing this matter, but determining where you find your morality is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mæŋksmən Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 I would rather burn in hell for eternity, than murder my own children. And in my opinion anyone who says if thats what god wanted him to do, he would obey God, then his kids should be taken into care quick smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 But I never said it did exist I said it may exist If there is good evidence it does not exist then please provide it otherwise we must assume logically it is a strong possibility but not a definate. You can only prove it is not or is you cannot prove a probability. Jim all LDV did was to ask if there was any evidence that "it may exist" - certainly people can hold beliefs when they have no evidence whatsoever - but if there isn't any evidence it is justifiable to ask why they hold that belief and not a different one. You can make multiple claims about things you have no evidence for - the issue is how do you distingish between them, and why you believe one claim more than another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mæŋksmən Posted September 17, 2010 Share Posted September 17, 2010 Ok china. Why do you believe there is no god/diety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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