Burning Holy Books

[Chinahand]

I do not say there is no god - I say I have no evidence for one. These are very different claims. Because I find all the claims about God/Gods and their desires for me to behave in certain ways entirely unconvincing I choose to live my life as morally as I can based on my understanding of what that is (and please note any Christian or other religious person will suffer EXACTLY the same dilemma - we all have to decide ourselves whether our behaviour is acceptable or not - that is the point I was trying to make to DjDan yesterday - in the end all we have are fallible human based decisions).

 

I have no evidence for the Christian god or any other kind and I find Spook's convolutions and claims that God deliberately sows chaos to test faith etc entirely unconvincing.

 

Christianity does make various claims which can be tested empirically - the efficacy of pray etc. These claims fail. Where the claims are unprovable all you are left with is to ask why does the faith have these ideas and ultimately the answer is conservatism which I find very unconvincing and not a logical way to distinquish truth claims between competing religions.

 

I am ultimately agnostic, but defacto atheist towards Thor, Zeus, Allah and Yahweh - there is no more evidence for them than water elves, unicorns or dryads.

[spook]

As I said, show me your logic that it does not exist.

The burden of proof is on those who make the claim/s. I haven't made any claims.

You did, you said it does not exist, I never said it did.

No I NEVER did! I would say that Christian God does not exist. Quite concern of that.

As for some being or intelligence behind the universe. Might be possible. But there is nothing that would lead me to that conclusion. If there is good evidence then please provide it.

 

 

Is there evidence that the Lord, for the sake of LDV The Christian Lord exists and is the Power that is the creator of the universe? I say yes and here is my reasoning.

 

The history of the jew is one of success in the face of disaster and conflict. Yet the jew has survived. Other people who believed in their gods attacked the Jew and failed even when they have been on the much better positioned to succeed in terms of numbers, power, armaments and so on.

 

Whenever the jew turned away from what The Lord had told should be done things started to go wrong. Every time there was a resurgence things went right. Now take Christ and his teachings. He came to save mankind from himself. To offer a way to the Lord that was not hindered by what the scribes and pharisees were saying and where semantics were being used to twist the teaching of The Lord. Look what happened.

 

Some jewish people listened to what they were being told and became Christians. There was a big price to pay and it was paid but there was a huge void to be crossed, a huge backlog on wrongdoing to be made good.

 

But it was made good, the people who persecuted the jews who followed their saviour had their numbers swelled by non jews as the invitation of The Lord went out to all mankind spread by the teachings of Christ and by the Holy Spirit working in his followers be they the original disciples or those who came after.

 

Everywhere that the Lord had His presence made known, everywhere that Jesus was accepted as the saviour the effect was beneficial to people.

 

There have been groups who have taken the Teachings and used them for nefarious means such as the Roman Catholic invention of Constantine in his stitch up but even there genuine Christians benefited.

 

So the evidence that The Lord is the power of the universe is there to be seen. Those who follow and love The Lord benefit from the power of the universe, for it is one and the same.

[Chinahand]

You know what Spook - the Hindus feel pretty much the same, and those who follow Shinto even more so.

[spook]

You know what Spook - the Hindus feel pretty much the same, and those who follow Shinto even more so.

 

 

I know. When I read what Jesus said about His Fathers house having many mansions I do believe that there is more than a posssibility that The Lord has made his presence lknown in many other parts of the world and even provided saviours for those people who will reside in those mansions.

[The Old Git]

Whenever the jew turned away from what The Lord had told should be done things started to go wrong. Every time there was a resurgence things went right.

 

Do you believe that the octopus was really clever in picking the winners in the football world cup or was it just plain luck?

[Chinahand]

So Jesus didn't really mean "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

You are a wonderful mix of contradictions Spook but then again the bible is too!

[spook]

Whenever the jew turned away from what The Lord had told should be done things started to go wrong. Every time there was a resurgence things went right.

 

Do you believe that the octopus was really clever in picking the winners in the football world cup or was it just plain luck?

 

Do you want a serious answer?

 

If you do it will be based on the principle that satan is to be found behind clairvoyance of all sorts.

 

The Lord declared through The holy Spirit that we should not suffer a witch to live. At the time it was to separate the practices of the Ba’alists from those of the jew but it was satan then that was behind the Ba;alist practices that were a challenge to The Lord’s people remaining true to The Lord.

 

Today satan is just as real and just as evil and just as dangerous as he was when he was cast down and will be until the final Trump. Engaging in any form of clairvoyance invites demons to join people and work their subtle ways to undermine the Teaching of Christ.

Have nothing to do with it, it is and always will be one of the works of the evil one.

[spook]

So Jesus didn't really mean "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

You are a wonderful mix of contradictions Spook but then again the bible is too!

 

 

Jesus ment precisely what he said to the people who could hear him and who later received his message. The Lord so loves the world that the meaaage could well have been sent to those people who could not but were still offered a way to salvation. The Lord created and loves mankind, it is inconcievable that he would not have offered salvation to all mankind.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

...certainly people can hold beliefs when they have no evidence whatsoever - but if there isn't any evidence it is justifiable to ask why they hold that belief and not a different one.

They can hold beliefs, but without any evidence there is no good reason why they should.

[mæŋksmən]

Thats what he said honey.

[Chinahand]

Spook, I know you'll want to shout at me - but what happened at Pentecost is a pretty important event for Christians -

 

Acts 2:14

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17" 'In the last days, God says,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

18Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

19I will show wonders in the heaven above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

20The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

21And everyone who calls

on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

 

And Paul himself wrote:

 

Romans 12:6 (New International Version)

6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

 

and

 

1 Corinthians 14

Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

 

What is your understanding of prophecy in these verses? I fully admit I am not talking about an octopus here - but to me it looks like prophecy was an important part of Christianity then - are you saying it is all satanic now?

 

How can you distingish between them - especially with those tares?

[spook]

Spook, I know you'll want to shout at me - but what happened at Pentecost is a pretty important event for Christians -

 

Acts 2:14

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17" 'In the last days, God says,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

18Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

19I will show wonders in the heaven above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

20The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

21And everyone who calls

on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

 

And Paul himself wrote:

 

Romans 12:6 (New International Version)

6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

 

and

 

1 Corinthians 14

Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

 

What is your understanding of prophecy in these verses? I fully admit I am not talking about an octopus here - but to me it looks like prophecy was an important part of Christianity then - are you saying it is all satanic now?

 

How can you distingish between them - especially with those tares?

 

 

Prophecy is not the same as clairvoyance, necromancey, fortune telling, astrology, or any of the other so called occult “arts”, occult only because satan does not want his involvement to be seen.

 

Prophesy is about The Holy Ghost guiding man in the way of the lord. Jesus spoke of false prophets, of wolves in sheeps clothing, and about judging the tree by its fruit.

 

Prophecy is about spreading the word of God as a prophet OF The Lord. It is not about parlour tricks.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The history of the jew is one of success in the face of disaster and conflict. Yet the jew has survived. Other people who believed in their gods attacked the Jew and failed even when they have been on the much better positioned to succeed in terms of numbers, power, armaments and so on.

I don't really call the history of the Jewish people a success. They have been persecuted constantly throughout history. The diaspora, treatment in England by early Norman rulers, the pogroms, gas chambers, and anti-semitism across the world in the past and current.

It's not a failure. But painting it as a success would seem to ignore the harm done to these people.

 

I don't see any situation of one people succeeding where another has failed. Not at all.

 

Whenever the jew turned away from what The Lord had told should be done things started to go wrong.

Do you mind sparing some time to explain these instances please?

 

Everywhere that the Lord had His presence made known, everywhere that Jesus was accepted as the saviour the effect was beneficial to people...

 

So the evidence that The Lord is the power of the universe is there to be seen. Those who follow and love The Lord benefit from the power of the universe, for it is one and the same.

No, all you have said is that you believe Jewish history shows the success of these people in adversity.

Nothing here demonstrates the presence of God. Although you could do with explaining these instances of where the Jews turned away from God and re-approached him that is the basis for your argument.

 

In any case, for a supposedly loving and caring God, a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent being, it does seem extremely peculiar why he would stand back and let his favoured people suffer so much.

Interestingly, if he was quite willing to let the Jews suffer so much for their turning away from him, why not punish other people even more who are even further from him, i.e. atheists, satanists, mormons, reptilians, etc.

[Chinahand]

Spook in what way is prophecy different from fortune telling? Surely they are both saying things about the future.

[spook]

Spook in what way is prophecy different from fortune telling? Surely they are both saying things about the future.

 

It’s not just semantics.

 

The word “prophet” in the bible derives from the Greek word used in place of the Hebrew word (don’t know so don’t ask!). In biblical useage a prophet is someone through whom The Holy Spirit communicates a message to Mankind that could include warnings or advice about what Mankind was facing but originating from The Lord.

 

Only later did the word prophecy become wrongly but generally associated with telling the future by association with the occult and so associated with clairvoyance and the other practices associated with the evil one and his hoards.