Burning Holy Books

[spook]

I don't really call the history of the Jewish people a success. They have been persecuted constantly throughout history. The diaspora, treatment in England by early Norman rulers, the pogroms, gas chambers, and anti-semitism across the world in the past and current.

 

It's not a failure. But painting it as a success would seem to ignore the harm done to these people.

 

I don't see any situation of one people succeeding where another has failed. Not at all.

They are still here in spite of everything. Other peoples have faced far less and have disappeared. It is inevitable they would be faced with the horrors that they have. Being loved by The Lord they are hated by the evil one. But they have survived and now have returned to Zion.

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Whenever the jew turned away from what The Lord had told should be done things started to go wrong.

Do you mind sparing some time to explain these instances please?

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Everywhere that the Lord had His presence made known, everywhere that Jesus was accepted as the saviour the effect was beneficial to people...

 

So the evidence that The Lord is the power of the universe is there to be seen. Those who follow and love The Lord benefit from the power of the universe, for it is one and the same.

No, all you have said is that you believe Jewish history shows the success of these people in adversity.

Nothing here demonstrates the presence of God. Although you could do with explaining these instances of where the Jews turned away from God and re-approached him that is the basis for your argument.

 

In any case, for a supposedly loving and caring God, a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent being, it does seem extremely peculiar why he would stand back and let his favoured people suffer so much.

 

If you love a thing release it. If it comes back to you it is yours. If it does not it never was. The same principle applies.

 

Interestingly, if he was quite willing to let the Jews suffer so much for their turning away from him, why not punish other people even more who are even further from him, i.e. atheists, satanists, mormons, reptilians, etc.

 

The Lord seldom punishes people in this life.

 

He leaves the invitation open to them to learn that they are sinners, to repent their sins, to accept Jesus, and to become saved.

 

Those who choose not to be saved will face the hereafter in hell.

 

As a man I find it sad, but it is the will of The Lord and it is not for me to question especially as I am sure it saddens The Lord whenever a sinner rejects the greatest gift of all and usually out of pride, the evil ones greatest lever, the thing that saw him fall because of his own.

 

The evil one on the other had frequently helps people in this life.

 

The evil one hates The Lord because he was cast down. Yet even the evil one has his place, for now. The evil one is the lime in the furnace of The Lord, the thing that separates the gold from the worthless in the ore.

 

LDV, why not go to a church service this Sunday?

 

I would sugest a low church such as a Baptist church (well I would, wouldn’t I!) but not because of my opinion about different churches and Christianity, but because there is far less emphasis on fancy trimmings or associated agendas in a Baptist church. Or repeating of prayers someone else has come up with and written in books to be repeated, usually with little awareness and usually simply in time with the rest of the congregation.

 

Instead just an opportunity to get to be in a place where the Holy Spirit is there to be met if you are ready, along with other people who simply want to spend time in the presence of The Holy Spirit and each other, to wonder at the works of The Lord, to have someone express their view of His works in some way, and maybe get something out of it that will be totally new and unexpected.

 

You don’t even need to join in conversation with anyone if you don’t want.

 

It would not be easy. The evil one sets deep roots in those he chooses for himself or chooses to use to tempt others, but to you the only cost would be at most a couple of hours of your life.

 

The benefit, well that could be eternal.

 

For those who may not know the service usually lasts about an hour and a half provided you don’t get a “Long Playing Pastor”!

 

If Eucharist is offered (communion) you do NOT need to accept, no one will comment, think bad of you, ask you why later, or anything else.

 

(you don’t even have to join in any hymns if you don’t want to! The only thing is you will probably be asked to stand and sit a couple of times and that, truth be known, to stop some from nodding off!)

[Lao]

We have covered this subject several times before on manxforums.

 

If spook and the other piously religious arguing here had been born in a muslim country they would be muslim, or likewise a hindu or buddhist based on their respected places of birth and religion of their parents.

 

NO book, religious or otherwise has ever been written by or on behalf of a deity, nor is there any work that describes how to live your life according to a deities wishes, because if there were such a book it would produce miraculous conversions when read by anyone of any religion, with a 100% success rate, there could be no other holy book that could compare to it and as such no other religion would be able to exist under the weight of such divine evidence. If a deity were to write such a book, but it was indistinquishable from similar works written by man, what would that say about the powers of said deity and it fitness to rule over the lives of man.

 

Religion is a perculiarity of nationality and parentage. nothing more.

 

When the Christian Crusaders took Jerusalem, they cited god as the reason for their victory, and when saladin took it back nearly 100 years later, the muslims cited allah as the reason for their success. Neither side ever wondered where their respective deity was when they lost. Neither side wondered if perhaps there was no deity watching over them, or that it was a fickle god that changes side frequently, or is singularly uninterested in the lives and wars of an insignificant people.

[- Paul -]

But they have survived and now have returned to Zion.

Were they on The Logos or The Nebuchadnezzar?

[spook]

But they have survived and now have returned to Zion.

Were they on The Logos or The Nebuchadnezzar?

 

Where are the Dodos or the Passenger pigeons, and birds are still here.

[Mr. Sausages]

Spook - is it possible that the bible, and Jesus and churches and stuff are all actually the devil's work? I.e. that God's not really arsed what we get up to, but the devil created them all just to play with people's minds, and that actually anybody who believes in all that stuff ends up going to hell? That would surely be the ultimate evil plan, which is what the devil is supposed to be all about.

[Pierrot Lunaire]

If you add a letter o to God, you get Good. But if you add a letter D to evil, you get Devil. That's spooky.

[spook]

Spook - is it possible that the bible, and Jesus and churches and stuff are all actually the devil's work? I.e. that God's not really arsed what we get up to, but the devil created them all just to play with people's minds, and that actually anybody who believes in all that stuff ends up going to hell? That would surely be the ultimate evil plan, which is what the devil is supposed to be all about.

I’ll give a serious answer.

 

No, it is not possible that the Bible or Jesus are the work of the evil one.

 

Consider this. If a man follows the teaching of Christ he will live a life that is morally sound. He will not kill, steal, lie, or be envious of what other people have.

 

He will work no more than six days a week and importantly will not allow people who work for him to work more than six days a week.

 

He will have listened to and obeyed his parents, he will understand that The Lord loves him and that by accepting Jesus as his saviour and following as closely as he can in his teachings he is assured his eternity.

 

He will be moderate in his life, he will not abuse his children, he will care for and support his wife and family.

 

None of that would be something that the evil one would want to take place.

[spook]

If you add a letter o to God, you get Good. But if you add a letter D to evil, you get Devil. That's spooky.

 

LOL!

 

If you’re dyslexic you can seriously mess up how you feel about dogs and Santa will never be the same!

[Mr. Sausages]

That's just what the devil wants you to think.

[- Paul -]

If you add a letter o to God, you get Good. But if you add a letter D to evil, you get Devil. That's spooky.

 

And if you move the letters around in SANTA

You get SATAN

[La_Dolce_Vita]

They are still here in spite of everything. Other peoples have faced far less and have disappeared. It is inevitable they would be faced with the horrors that they have. Being loved by The Lord they are hated by the evil one. But they have survived and now have returned to Zion.

I still have to ask, so what? Many civilisations and people have gone through very tough or disastrous times throughout their history. It would appear to be extremely selective to simply hold up the Jews as something unique.

 

Everywhere that the Lord had His presence made known, everywhere that Jesus was accepted as the saviour the effect was beneficial to people...

I was asking if you could kindly explain the historical instances where the Jewish people turned away from the Lord and thus suffered as a result.

 

And I am also interested in how you think the return or movement back towards the Lord led to them living through better times. Are you saying that they were receiving protection when they were close to the Lord?

 

If you love a thing release it. If it comes back to you it is yours. If it does not it never was. The same principle applies.

But if we are talking about love, something which we define and have a shared understanding of, if you DO love something would not let it come to harm. You certainly would not allow them to get moved from their 'homeland', allow them to be subject to terrible mobs who brought violence against, suffer from marginalisation and verbal abuse, and genocide.

From my understanding of love, I would not call what your God is doing or not doing love. It isn't a loving God.

 

I say this because we are expected to believe that God is a being who can see into the future and knows what will occur. If such attributes are accorded to him then one has to wonder what this charade is all about. If he knows that the Jewish people will EVENTUALLY return to him, then from your principle he would be aware of whether they love him back or not.

 

Unless you do not attribute the power of foresight to this creature.

 

The Lord seldom punishes people in this life.

Ok, that's your understand. A lot of Christians do disagree. A lot think that the Lord intervenes to punish.

 

Those who choose not to be saved will face the hereafter in hell.

Again, that's why he is not loving. You MUST love me or you WILL be tortured in eternity. That's evil.

As a man I find it sad, but it is the will of The Lord and it is not for me to question especially as I am sure it saddens The Lord whenever a sinner rejects the greatest gift of all and usually out of pride, the evil ones greatest lever, the thing that saw him fall because of his own.

What do you find sad and why? I would like this to be replied to more than any other question or comment I have made.

 

The evil one on the other had frequently helps people in this life.

The evil one hates The Lord because he was cast down. Yet even the evil one has his place, for now. The evil one is the lime in the furnace of The Lord, the thing that separates the gold from the worthless in the ore.

The devil (or Satan), supposedly, has made many attempts to influence or intervene. With such a manipulative intelligence undertaking such things against humans why does God not eliminate him or neutralise his powers? He is supposedly no equal of Gods.

 

LDV, why not go to a church service this Sunday?

Why would I? You haven't provided any evidence for why this God exists. I would not attend a Church when I know that such a God does not exist.

 

What you have discussed in reference to the Jews is very poor evidence in my opinion. You have simply noted that the Jewish people have still survived as a ethnic/religious group after much persecution and troubles. Not enough. Not when such a result could easily be through chance or MAYBE EVEN through the tenacity of this people

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Consider this. If a man follows the teaching of Christ he will live a life that is morally sound. He will not kill, steal, lie, or be envious of what other people have.

These are simple morals that are required in order that social relations do not break down or are radically reorganised. No society can be expected to function without these moral codes.

 

It would be foolish to think that lying is always bad and therefore create a commandment. If you could save thousands or millions by lying, then would you lie if it was required? Would you lie in particular circumstances if the truth was too much or too painful to bear, i.e. someone dying a painful death - tell them they did not, maybe.

 

As for being envious of others, I think this is immoral. Back then in the deserts of Palestine as in our society now there are those who have own and control much wealth and resources. They are people who have worked little or never could have worked a proportionate amount required to come into possession of such things fairly.

Are we to just stand by and sanction their acquisition or ownership of such things?

 

He will have listened to and obeyed his parents, ...

Often parents should not be obeyed. Often they are wrong, are subject to poor decisionmaking, have ordered something which would do harm to the child, etc.

 

None of that would be something that the evil one would want to take place.

I have to ask again, what is the source of your and society's overall moral awareness?

[mæŋksmən]

I prefer stats.

[slinkydevil]

www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

[Lao]

Spook - is it possible that the bible, and Jesus and churches and stuff are all actually the devil's work? I.e. that God's not really arsed what we get up to, but the devil created them all just to play with people's minds, and that actually anybody who believes in all that stuff ends up going to hell? That would surely be the ultimate evil plan, which is what the devil is supposed to be all about.

I’ll give a serious answer.

 

No, it is not possible that the Bible or Jesus are the work of the evil one.

 

Consider this. If a man follows the teaching of Christ he will live a life that is morally sound. He will not kill, steal, lie, or be envious of what other people have.

 

He will work no more than six days a week and importantly will not allow people who work for him to work more than six days a week.

 

He will have listened to and obeyed his parents, he will understand that The Lord loves him and that by accepting Jesus as his saviour and following as closely as he can in his teachings he is assured his eternity.

 

He will be moderate in his life, he will not abuse his children, he will care for and support his wife and family.

 

None of that would be something that the evil one would want to take place.

 

a life that is morally sound, by following the bible?

 

Quite the opposite.

 

Forgetting the horrendous acts committed by god in the old testament, even living your life by the example left by Jesus in the new testament would lead to a much lower standard of morally than most ordinary people would consider acceptable today.

 

child abuse:

 

Jesus seems to really have it in for unruly or disobediant children, in both Matthew 15:4-7 and in Mark 7:9 he advocates murder as a form of punishment, personally im glad that people have more patience with children than is deemed 'moral' by biblical standards.

 

Slavery:

 

far from being horrified by slavery, Jesus condones the beating of slaves in Luke 12:47

 

Mass murder:

 

Jesus curses entire towns, because they did not value his teachings in matthew 11:20

 

Lying:

 

The whole Christian faith is based on Jesus being the messiah, which he clearly could not have been, as Matthew 1:23 states that the messiah would be called Immanuel, yet no one ever refers to Jesus as such, and in romans 1:3 it states that the messiah would be a direct physical descendant of David. However Jesus' geneology shows that he descended from david THROUGH Joseph, yet Joesph is not jesus' biological father due to the virgin birth. Despite this Jesus acted as if he were the messiah.

 

you can bury your head in the sand about it, but the truth is the bible condones slavery and the murder of children over and over in its pages, the god of the old testament is a vengful genocidal tantrum thrower, who seems completly unable to control his creations, either on earth or in the heavens, losing the faith of the people to 'false religions' and suffering a fallen angel, and then later a war in heaven! (revelations)

 

Its too easy to pick apart, i could write a better holy book.