Burning Holy Books

[spook]

Quote

 

Consider this. If a man follows the teaching of Christ he will live a life that is morally sound. He will not kill, steal, lie, or be envious of what other people have.

 

These are simple morals that are required in order that social relations do not break down or are radically reorganised. No society can be expected to function without these moral codes.

Some do. Tribal people often have moral codes that are based on might making right and in Islam the concept of a person owning “what his right arm takes” is well established.

 

It would be foolish to think that lying is always bad and therefore create a commandment. If you could save thousands or millions by lying, then would you lie if it was required? Would you lie in particular circumstances if the truth was too much or too painful to bear, i.e. someone dying a painful death - tell them they did not, maybe.

I would not lie.

 

As for being envious of others, I think this is immoral. Back then in the deserts of Palestine as in our society now there are those who have own and control much wealth and resources. They are people who have worked little or never could have worked a proportionate amount required to come into possession of such things fairly.

Are we to just stand by and sanction their acquisition or ownership of such things?

Yes.

Quote

He will have listened to and obeyed his parents, ...

 

Often parents should not be obeyed.

Often they are wrong, are subject to poor decisionmaking, have ordered something which would do harm to the child, etc.

Not Christian parents living God Fearing (it doesn’t mean being frightened of, it means respecting) lives.

Quote

None of that would be something that the evil one would want to take place.

 

I have to ask again, what is the source of your and society's overall moral awareness?

 

That which is beneficial to society as a whole and that promotes the mindset of JOY. Base your actions and thinking on the basis of priority - Jesus, Others, You in that order.

[spook]

a life that is morally sound, by following the bible?

 

Quite the opposite.

 

Forgetting the horrendous acts committed by god in the old testament, even living your life by the example left by Jesus in the new testament would lead to a much lower standard of morally than most ordinary people would consider acceptable today.

 

child abuse:

 

Jesus seems to really have it in for unruly or disobediant children, in both Matthew 15:4-7 and in Mark 7:9 he advocates murder as a form of punishment, personally im glad that people have more patience with children than is deemed 'moral' by biblical standards.

 

Oh dear. Someone else who really doesn’t understand The Bible OR Christianity OR Christ’s role as the Messiah.

 

I’ll keep this short and simple. Matthew 15 relates to the questioning of Jesus.

 

The verses you refer to are used by Our Lord to illustrate the hypocrisy of the Pharasees in questioning Jesus and his disciples not following Leviticus law.

 

As for Mark 7:9 I presume you mean Mark 7:10. Once again read the chapter. To start with he refers to the Law of Moses as an illustrative only. Maybe you should look at what harming children results in rather than trying to find fault by distorting scripture.

 

Slavery:

 

far from being horrified by slavery, Jesus condones the beating of slaves in Luke 12:47

 

Once again read the chapter, see how the word used is servant, and how it is illustrative of mans relationship with The Lord and his actions based on his knowledge of the will of The Lord..

 

Mass murder:

 

Jesus curses entire towns, because they did not value his teachings in matthew 11:20

 

Read the chapter. Jesus is a part of The Trinity. He is no push over, not someone to be used and then dismissed when he is no longer wanted or needed. Do that and pay the price.

 

Lying:

 

The whole Christian faith is based on Jesus being the messiah, which he clearly could not have been, as Matthew 1:23 states that the messiah would be called Immanuel, yet no one ever refers to Jesus as such, and in romans 1:3 it states that the messiah would be a direct physical descendant of David. However Jesus' geneology shows that he descended from david THROUGH Joseph, yet Joesph is not jesus' biological father due to the virgin birth. Despite this Jesus acted as if he were the messiah.

 

Do you know that Immanuel has a meaning? That it means “God is here”? Do you not know that the messiah was declared to be of Davids LINE, not his direct descendent?

 

you can bury your head in the sand about it, but the truth is the bible condones slavery and the murder of children over and over in its pages, the god of the old testament is a vengful genocidal tantrum thrower, who seems completly unable to control his creations, either on earth or in the heavens, losing the faith of the people to 'false religions' and suffering a fallen angel, and then later a war in heaven! (revelations)

 

You have demonstrated that you do not even yet understand the basics of The Bible let alone understand it sufficiently to make comment let alone judgment of it.

 

Its too easy to pick apart, i could write a better holy book.

 

I have no doubt that you could. You would have and need a co-author though, the evil one.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You are wrong to say Jesus was mad or very bad, although he certainly may have been (honestly) deluded about the imminence of the Kingdom and His role in it. I cannot see any justification at all for saying he was bad - what is your justification?

I am wrong in thinking that he created or was the chief exponent of the then new idea of going to hell? Was he not just another fraudster who tried to cast others under the spell of religion and also gave the impression/nor dispelled an impression that he was divine?

[Lao]

 

Oh dear. Someone else who really doesn’t understand The Bible OR Christianity OR Christ’s role as the Messiah.

 

I’ll keep this short and simple. Matthew 15 relates to the questioning of Jesus.

 

The verses you refer to are used by Our Lord to illustrate the hypocrisy of the Pharasees in questioning Jesus and his disciples not following Leviticus law.

 

As for Mark 7:9 I presume you mean Mark 7:10. Once again read the chapter. To start with he refers to the Law of Moses as an illustrative only. Maybe you should look at what harming children results in rather than trying to find fault by distorting scripture.

 

Once again read the chapter, see how the word used is servant, and how it is illustrative of mans relationship with The Lord and his actions based on his knowledge of the will of The Lord..

 

Read the chapter. Jesus is a part of The Trinity. He is no push over, not someone to be used and then dismissed when he is no longer wanted or needed. Do that and pay the price.

 

Do you know that Immanuel has a meaning? That it means “God is here”? Do you not know that the messiah was declared to be of Davids LINE, not his direct descendent?

 

You have demonstrated that you do not even yet understand the basics of The Bible let alone understand it sufficiently to make comment let alone judgment of it.

 

I have no doubt that you could. You would have and need a co-author though, the evil one.

 

you must have me mistaken for someone else, i see through the bible, christianity and their associated fairy tales all to well, in fact i am somewhat astounded in this day and age that people can still fall for the myths and superstitions of a bronze age people.

 

Remember that you have in answer to a question from LDV stated that you would not lie. With that in mind Does the bible condone slavery? are there not several passages on the proper way to treat your slaves, regulatory rules and regulations on how to disciplie them, when and if they should be freed, and what race or nationality it is acceptable for slavery?

 

Is not slavery wrong?

How can the bible be a timeless moral guide and yet not condemn slavery?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

quote name='spook' date='20 September 2010 - 09:41 AM' timestamp='1284972092' post='558243']

I still I can think of no civilisation let alone nation that has survived intact in the way that the jew has.I don't know what you are specifically meaning by impact, but if it is related to the idea of A people that has existed back then as now then I would think the Han Chinese would qualify as a good example.

 

But the fact that there are still Jewish people from the Levant who exist is simply due to their religion and ethnic background giving them a sense of identity.

 

How about when Moses went up into the mountain and came down to find the people had crafted a golden calf? That cost them forty years in the wilderness.

But this is from the Bible.

 

After that time they were led to the Promised Land and yes, closeness to The Lord did provide protection and success.

I just need to have an idea as to instances of where the Jewish people turned away from God or moved back. Something verifiable which can then be tied to their success or downfall. If no instances can be given then we really cannot say whether turning away from God was the problem. Assuming for the sake of argument that a God exists.

 

It is the proving of the presence of love even when at a cost.

I would sugest that releasing a thing would include releasing it into an environment where there would be atractions that might tempt it NOT to return. Only if faced with that and it did return could you be sure it really loved you.

But there is no discernible presence of love. Love is clearly not the quality that you are referring to.

Would you place a loved one in harm for the sake of finding our whether they loved you or not? Why also would a God placed his people in harm to find out whether they love him when WE all know the people are apt to go back to religion when in tough times? Doesn't sound like a good test.

 

Where did you get the idea that The Lord was able to forsee the actions of creatures to whom he gave free will?

It seems to be a claim made by a great deal of Christians. You don't agree?

 

No, that’s establishing the wheat from the tare.

Pardon?

 

I find it sad that people refuse the gift of salvation and I am saddened at the terrible price they must pay in the hereafter.

Do you think it is fair punishment? Is it right? If I do not accept the Lord, do I deserve to be punished for all eternity?

 

There is only one Lord of Hosts though his house has many mansions.

If you take out the refining agent from the furnace you end up with the same ore that you put into it. The object is to extract the gold.

In English? Do you have an interest in previous metals?

 

I sense that you are a troubled soul. I accept that you still have not found The Lord.

If you know his whereabouts I will have a quick look. But don't tell me I need faith. Besides, if I found the Lord, I wouldn't worship the monster.

 

Or thinking about it maybe you actually have, and fear him and his power. Like a child who covers his head at night in the hope that this will protect him on the basis of what he refuses to see will not see him.

You keep thinking that. I mean, I have explained why I cannot believe he is real, but you delude yourself.

[spook]

 

you must have me mistaken for someone else, i see through the bible, christianity and their associated fairy tales all to well, in fact i am somewhat astounded in this day and age that people can still fall for the myths and superstitions of a bronze age people.

 

Remember that you have in answer to a question from LDV stated that you would not lie. With that in mind Does the bible condone slavery? are there not several passages on the proper way to treat your slaves, regulatory rules and regulations on how to disciplie them, when and if they should be freed, and what race or nationality it is acceptable for slavery?

 

Is not slavery wrong?

How can the bible be a timeless moral guide and yet not condemn slavery?

 

No, I have not mistaken you for someone else. You really do not understand The Bible let alone Christianity.

 

The bible does not condone or condem slavery. The bible sets out the way that servants be they bonded or freemen should be treated. But slavery means different things to different people.

 

A bondsman, someone who has committed to work for a master for a period of time or until some condition is finished could be thought of as a slave.

 

So could an apprentice bound to his master.

 

A POW being required to work as part of restitution for losses incured in war likewise could be (and was) considered as a slave.

 

Similarly a criminal being required to work for a master as part of his punishment might be considered as being a slave.

 

There are many ways that a person might or might not be considered by another as being a slave. Better is to look at how the word servant is used, especially in The New Covenant (The New Testiment).

 

What would be wrong would be for people to deliberatly capture others and then sell them as if it were a transaction between two legitimate owners of a bond between master and man. That would be based on theft and theft is absolutly prohibited in The Bible.

[Chinahand]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A5-8&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3%3A22-25&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:1-2&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+2%3A9-10&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:18-21&version=NIV

 

I have to quote this one its so sickening:

 

1 Peter 2:18-21 (New International Version)

 

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:%205-9&version=NIV

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Some do. Tribal people often have moral codes that are based on might making right and in Islam the concept of a person owning “what his right arm takes” is well established.

Some do. But these basic moral codes show that people can have a moral basis without Christianity. And certainly people had morals prior to the arrival of the Judaeo-Christian religions.

 

I would not lie.

I think you could potentially put you in very immoral circumstances. And I don't believe you.

 

As for being envious of others, I think this is immoral. Back then in the deserts of Palestine as in our society now there are those who have own and control much wealth and resources. They are people who have worked little or never could have worked a proportionate amount required to come into possession of such things fairly.

Are we to just stand by and sanction their acquisition or ownership of such things?

Yes.

Sounds like a rule that can potentially keep the poor impoverished and help the rich stay rich. Not very insightful into why such inequalities arise.

 

Not Christian parents living God Fearing (it doesn’t mean being frightened of, it means respecting) lives.

Are you talking about a very small minority of people here who are 'devout' Christians?

 

That which is beneficial to society as a whole and that promotes the mindset of JOY. Base your actions and thinking on the basis of priority - Jesus, Others, You in that order.

Beneficial to society as a whole? How do you determine? As an individual, you cannot consider others needs and desires except from a subjective manner. Unless you self-righteously (and no doubt) think that a Christian mindset is the answer.

 

Anyway, it was a poor answer. I am asking where society's moral awareness lies. How do people know what is right and wrong?

[slinkydevil]

 

Oh dear. Someone else who really doesn’t understand The Bible OR Christianity OR Christ’s role as the Messiah.

 

Me neither. Can you explain it to me? I'm willing to be Christian if you can.

[spook]

quote I still I can think of no civilisation let alone nation that has survived intact in the way that the jew has.

I don't know what you are specifically meaning by impact, but if it is related to the idea of A people that has existed back then as now then I would think the Han Chinese would qualify as a good example.

 

But the fact that there are still Jewish people from the Levant who exist is simply due to their religion and ethnic background giving them a sense of identity.

Not just the people from The Levant, people who have converted into judaism, in fact jews who have traveled the world and still the jew religious denomination remains in place.

QuoteHow about when Moses went up into the mountain and came down to find the people had crafted a golden calf? That cost them forty years in the wilderness.

But this is from the Bible.

So what? It is still true.

QuoteAfter that time they were led to the Promised Land and yes, closeness to The Lord did provide protection and success.

I just need to have an idea as to instances of where the Jewish people turned away from God or moved back. Something verifiable which can then be tied to their success or downfall. If no instances can be given then we really cannot say whether turning away from God was the problem. Assuming for the sake of argument that a God exists.

You have been given one.

QuoteIt is the proving of the presence of love even when at a cost.

I would sugest that releasing a thing would include releasing it into an environment where there would be atractions that might tempt it NOT to return. Only if faced with that and it did return could you be sure it really loved you.

But there is no discernible presence of love. Love is clearly not the quality that you are referring to.

 

Would you place a loved one in harm for the sake of finding our whether they loved you or not? Why also would a God placed his people in harm to find out whether they love him when WE all know the people are apt to go back to religion when in tough times? Doesn't sound like a good test.

That is your opinion.

Quote

Where did you get the idea that The Lord was able to forsee the actions of creatures to whom he gave free will?

It seems to be a claim made by a great deal of Christians. You don't agree?

I don’t agree. It is not a thing that “low” Christians would ever support. It is also counter to the principle of proving the metal which is one of the reasons we are all on this earth.

Quote

No, that’s establishing the wheat from the tare.

Pardon?

The worthwhile from the useless. A tare is a thing that in a filed looks like wheat but actually is useless.

Quote

I find it sad that people refuse the gift of salvation and I am saddened at the terrible price they must pay in the hereafter.

 

Do you think it is fair punishment? Is it right? If I do not accept the Lord, do I deserve to be punished for all eternity?

Its not for me to say. You still have the choice. Be a saint or be a sinner, gain the benefit from one, suffer for the second..

Quote

There is only one Lord of Hosts though his house has many mansions.

If you take out the refining agent from the furnace you end up with the same ore that you put into it. The object is to extract the gold.

 

In English? Do you have an interest in previous metals?

Not precious metals, precious souls and as a Christian yours is as precious to me as anyone else’s.

Quote

I sense that you are a troubled soul. I accept that you still have not found The Lord.

 

If you know his whereabouts I will have a quick look. But don't tell me I need faith. Besides, if I found the Lord, I wouldn't worship the monster.

You don’t yet know The Lord and yet you judge him? .

Quote

Or thinking about it maybe you actually have, and fear him and his power. Like a child who covers his head at night in the hope that this will protect him on the basis of what he refuses to see will not see him.

 

You keep thinking that. I mean, I have explained why I cannot believe he is real, but you delude yourself.

 

I hope not my friend, I really do.

[spook]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A5-8&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+3%3A22-25&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:1-2&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+2%3A9-10&version=NIV

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:18-21&version=NIV

 

I have to quote this one its so sickening:

 

1 Peter 2:18-21 (New International Version)

 

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:%205-9&version=NIV

 

None of which I have a problem with.

[spook]

 

Oh dear. Someone else who really doesn’t understand The Bible OR Christianity OR Christ’s role as the Messiah.

 

Me neither. Can you explain it to me? I'm willing to be Christian if you can.

 

Attend an Alpha course. It's a start.

[Evil Goblin]

LDV - the idea of Hell (or Gehenna) was not new to Jesus. In any case, it did not refer to a physical Hell (which was really an invention of the Church in later years for frightening people into obedience) but to a mental Hell within a person which would result from their behaving badly i.e. Jesus was pointing out what he saw as a psychological fact.

 

I do not think you can call Jesus a fraudster - he honestly believed in what he taught and that the eventual Kingdom would involve all those who heard his words and obeyed the will of God. It is highly debatable that he thought of himself as Divine - that idea seems to later have been one in the minds of his disciples and followers.

[Lao]

 

you must have me mistaken for someone else, i see through the bible, christianity and their associated fairy tales all to well, in fact i am somewhat astounded in this day and age that people can still fall for the myths and superstitions of a bronze age people.

 

Remember that you have in answer to a question from LDV stated that you would not lie. With that in mind Does the bible condone slavery? are there not several passages on the proper way to treat your slaves, regulatory rules and regulations on how to disciplie them, when and if they should be freed, and what race or nationality it is acceptable for slavery?

 

Is not slavery wrong?

How can the bible be a timeless moral guide and yet not condemn slavery?

 

No, I have not mistaken you for someone else. You really do not understand The Bible let alone Christianity.

 

The bible does not condone or condem slavery. The bible sets out the way that servants be they bonded or freemen should be treated. But slavery means different things to different people.

 

A bondsman, someone who has committed to work for a master for a period of time or until some condition is finished could be thought of as a slave.

 

So could an apprentice bound to his master.

 

A POW being required to work as part of restitution for losses incured in war likewise could be (and was) considered as a slave.

 

Similarly a criminal being required to work for a master as part of his punishment might be considered as being a slave.

 

There are many ways that a person might or might not be considered by another as being a slave. Better is to look at how the word servant is used, especially in The New Covenant (The New Testiment).

 

What would be wrong would be for people to deliberatly capture others and then sell them as if it were a transaction between two legitimate owners of a bond between master and man. That would be based on theft and theft is absolutly prohibited in The Bible.

 

like i said im all to aware of christians and the tired excuses and apologetics they use to justify living a life by the bible. As is clearly shown by me catching you in the slavery/servant trap.

 

When translating the bible king james v, got a little weak at the though of useing the word slave and instead mistranslated the word Doulos (greek for slave), serveral times into words such as"bondsman, servant aid, handmaid, manservant and maidservant".

 

The bible condones slavery, because slavery was rife at the time, yet despite this not once is it condemned in its pages, and if a book that is to be the basis upon which we are all to lead moral lives does not condemn such an evil act which was common in its day, then we can only conclude that slavery was considered acceptable to the creator of the bible whether that be man or god.

 

I hope that some christians who are reading this will take the time to do a bible passage comparison, to see how king james v took liberties with the translation.

http://bible.cc/leviticus/25-44.htm this is a comparison of leviticus 25:44 you can clearly see the swapping out of the term slavery for softer terminology, a very sinister branch of apologetics at work.

[jimbms]

One quick question spook, there are many religions in the world, some far older and far more credible than christianity, what proff can you offer that christianity is the only true religion and don't give me that shit because christ said so or your god did etc, I want undesputed proof that Shinto, Buddhism, Hindu, Roman, Egyptian and Greek gods, Islam etc are false and undesputed proof that jesus and your god exist. Without that proof it is all bullshit and a big con.