Burning Holy Books

[spook]

I do have to say I wonder how many other people find it little short of incredible that here we are in the 21st century and one of our members is proudly telling us he has no moral issue with a person being bound into slavery for life, to be passed on as a chattle. That such people should accept their fate even if their master is harsh.

 

In the world today many destitute people give up their children to traffickers, or place themselves in bounded servitude - they get smuggled in airless containers and if they are lucky have to work in sweat shops, if they are unlucky and young in brothels - a fate mainly for the girls, but not exclusively.

 

Spook says directly: none of this do I have a problem with - no problem for the poverty stricken selling themselves - the verses I put up condone slavery for life, with the slave inherited when their master dies. Spook doesn't have concerns.

 

And why does Spook have no moral qualms about this - because he is religious and so has to see the bible as some God inbued holy thing.

 

Here is the verse out of the King James: read it Spook - read it and think about it - think about little Thai girls, or Sri Lankan mothers who for the sake of their children endure servitude.

 

Here's the verse I've asked you to read:

 

Leviticus 25:44-46 (King James Version)

 

44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

 

45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

 

46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

 

Apply that to today's world - someone in bondship, for life, ruled over with rigour - oh yes that describes the fate of many many people. It is a living, current evil in this world. And Spook in his religious blindness has simply lost his moral compass and sees no moral issue as long as these people have sold themselves.

 

Shivers.

 

I see no moral issue beyond the sad state of affairs that compell people to do what they do.

[spook]

A number of people have had a merry time bad mouthing The Bible and Christianity and in every case based on a lack of knowledge or a distorted understanding of both. I’m hardly surprised, it’s what I’ve come to expect from younger people who have not been brought up in the Knowledge of The Bible let alone Jesus. What does disappoint me is that thus far no one has thought to comment of the contents of the Q’uran.

 

Disappoints me but doesn’t surprise be for the simple reason that if people are so ignorant about the religion of their country how can they be anything but clueless about an alien thing.

 

To begin with the Q’uran is utterly unlike The Bible in that it is not a history in chronological order, it is a series of verses that are intended to be learned off by heart. Whats more the verses do not appear in the sequence that Mohammed claims to have had them disclosed to him but instead by the length of the chapter in which they are placed.

 

Then there is what the Q’uran actually instructs. Again rather than a chronological history of events the Q’uran is open ended in that when a verse is encountered “kill the unbelievers” it doesn’t mean a thing that The Lord directed the people of Israel to do in a particular battle, it means FOR ALL TIME.

 

Here’s a Lulu. :- ”And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.”

 

So being “got at” by infidels is worse than being killed by infidels so if if you’ve been insulted then kill those that insult you.

 

And another :- ” "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." “

 

And on the same theme, for those who don’t want to fight and kill :-

 

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.”

 

That is interesting because it says that fighting is NOT a thing just to be used in self defence but a thing to be done when you’re told to by an imman even if you don’t think it’s right or proper. Religion of peace? A strange use of the word peace.

 

There’s over a hundred verses in the Q’uran that instruct Muslims to wage war with non Muslims. I’ll tell you this here and now, you will not find a single mention if the New Covenant, the very foundation of Christianity, that suggests that violence should even be employed.

 

Even when tempted by the evil one Jesus simply told him to remove himself with the words “Get behind me”.

 

And to think that people criticize The Bible and Christians and yet are not outraged by what is written in the Q’uran and obeyed by so many so diligently.

[Chinahand]

Pot, Kettle, Black.

[spook]

Pot, Kettle, Black.

 

Explain.

[spook]

mmm notice no answer to my question spook

 

You have heard the word of The Lord. You have the option to accept in faith just as The Lord puts faith in you to try to sin no more after Jesus takes on the punishment for your sins, or chose to walk away.

 

The Lord through Jesus invites, he does not compel.

[Lonan3]

A number of people have had a merry time bad mouthing The Bible and Christianity and in every case based on a lack of knowledge or a distorted understanding of both. Im hardly surprised, its what Ive come to expect from younger people who have not been brought up in the Knowledge of The Bible let alone Jesus.

 

In response to that: I am not one of those 'younger people,' I am in my sixties. As well as being instructed in the Roman Catholic religion, I was given a thorough learning of the Christian religion when I was young, including attendance at a Methodist Sunday School. I would match my knowledge and understanding of the Bible against most people who, like yourself, loudly proclaim your faith.

I realised, as I matured, that there was very little factual basis for the contents of that book; that it is nothing more than a cobbled-together volume relating the legends of a Middle-Eastern tribe and tieing them in with a distorted version of the life story of someone who tried to return his people to their original faith rather than compromise with the Romans.

Ultimately, the evidence for Jesus being a saviour of the world or a son of God is completely non-existent. Therefore, those who want to believe that have to do so as a matter of simple, blind faith and ignore the overwhelming evidence that says it isn't true.

 

To begin with the Quran is utterly unlike The Bible in that it is not a history in chronological order, it is a series of verses that are intended to be learned off by heart.

 

If you really believe that the Bible is a 'history in chronological order' then you really are being very foolish. There are so many parts of it that can be dismissed as historical record that it offers very little to anyone, like myself, who is genuinely interested in the study of history. In common with other ancient myths and legends - such as those of the Greeks and the Persians - it is a series of stories which have been verbally related through many generations until someone finally committed them to the written word - by which time, of course, they were distorted out of all proportion to their original form.

 

And to think that people criticize The Bible and Christians and yet are not outraged by what is written in the Quran and obeyed by so many so diligently.

 

Again, I have studied world religions - and you are quite correct in saying that the Qu'ran has parts which disgust the mind of civilised people - as does the Bible. In fact, the very idea that any book - any collection of words and stories that was written many centuries ago - can somehow be regarded as 'holy' is utterly offensive to those who dare to think for themselves.

 

[jimbms]

mmm notice no answer to my question spook

 

You have heard the word of The Lord. You have the option to accept in faith just as The Lord puts faith in you to try to sin no more after Jesus takes on the punishment for your sins, or chose to walk away.

 

The Lord through Jesus invites, he does not compel.

That does not answer my question or are you afraid to answer it because there is no way you can.

[spook]

mmm notice no answer to my question spook

 

You have heard the word of The Lord. You have the option to accept in faith just as The Lord puts faith in you to try to sin no more after Jesus takes on the punishment for your sins, or chose to walk away.

 

The Lord through Jesus invites, he does not compel.

That does not answer my question or are you afraid to answer it because there is no way you can.

 

I have answered your question perfectly. It may not be the answer that you want or thet you like but that is your problem.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Because I accept Jesus as my Messiah and saviour. Also because I accept the New Covenant and all it brings.

But why disagree with the Jewish perspective?

 

There is a great deal of historical fact that can now be confirmed archeologically. What’s more it is a work that was inspired by The Holy Spirit working within man.

Yes, the Bible does give reference to many historical events. Some has however been proven to be bogus - like the parting of the Red Sea, although anyone who believes this probably needs their head seeing to.

Other than some matters of historical interest, which is hardly surprising, there is no evidence for most of the Bible characters having existed, for any of the miracles to have happened, etc.

 

One is sufficient. Especially so in this case.

If you reference to Moses is all you to prove that when the Jews turned away from God they suffered and when returned to him they were rewarded or did better THROUGHOUT history, then it is no wonder you are so credulous, especially when you give this your evidence for God existing.

 

And yet they survived because The Lord was with them, or more to the point THEY were with The Lord.

You're misunderstanding me. When the Jews tried to stay with the Lord they still suffered. They could likely have had a better life by staying where their home and work was were they to convert. Suffering does not equate to moving away from God.

 

What I would do is immaterial. In any case it is not for man to question the acts of The Lord.

You must unless you are a mindless slave.

 

I trust in the judgment of The Lord. You have the option to determine your own afterlife for eternity. I believe that you deserve that choice.

You are being evasive. Do you believe that if God think it is right that I am punished for all eternity for not accepting him then that is allright with you?

[spook]

Quote

Because I accept Jesus as my Messiah and saviour. Also because I accept the New Covenant and all it brings.

 

But why disagree with the Jewish perspective?

Because the jew perspective as you put it does not accept Jesus as the Messiah and because the jew perspective does not accept the New Covenant.

QuoteThere is a great deal of historical fact that can now be confirmed archeologically. What’s more it is a work that was inspired by The Holy Spirit working within man.

 

Yes, the Bible does give reference to many historical events. Some has however been proven to be bogus - like the parting of the Red Sea, although anyone who believes this probably needs their head seeing to.

The parting of the Red Sea bogus? I would have thought that was far from the case especially since the massive Santorini eruption has been brought into focus.

Other than some matters of historical interest, which is hardly surprising, there is no evidence for most of the Bible characters having existed, for any of the miracles to have happened, etc.

The Bible is the evidence and the so called Dead Sea scrolls are now providing a great deal of corrobating evidence.

 

If you reference to Moses is all you to prove that when the Jews turned away from God they suffered and when returned to him they were rewarded or did better THROUGHOUT history, then it is no wonder you are so credulous, especially when you give this your evidence for God existing.

I gave one example of how the jew turned his back on God, what the punishment was, and what the reward was after the punishment had ended.

There is even an argument from modern times that for the faith that so many jews held during the holocaust that the re-establishment Israel was the reward.

QuoteAnd yet they survived because The Lord was with them, or more to the point THEY were with The Lord.

 

You're misunderstanding me. When the Jews tried to stay with the Lord they still suffered. They could likely have had a better life by staying where their home and work was were they to convert. Suffering does not equate to moving away from God.

Earthly suffering very often ends with a move away from God. But we are on this earth for a very short time.

Quote

What I would do is immaterial. In any case it is not for man to question the acts of The Lord.

 

You must unless you are a mindless slave.

Or if I love The Lord and accept his majesty, which I do.

Quote

I trust in the judgment of The Lord. You have the option to determine your own afterlife for eternity. I believe that you deserve that choice.

 

You are being evasive. Do you believe that if God think it is right that I am punished for all eternity for not accepting him then that is allright with you?

 

If it is the will of The Lord the why should it not be?

 

It will be a classic example of mene mene tekel upharsin.

[Chinahand]

I see no moral issue beyond the sad state of affairs that compell people to do what they do.

 

As ever you reverse the issue - you need to focus on the enslaver, not the inslaved compelled to sell themselves. I'm not really suprised you don't see this as a moral issue - you have no problem with people being eternally punished for finite crimes, so its par for the course for you for someone to purchase another person to be used as they see fit for the rest of their slave's (oh sorry bondman's) life.

 

The person enslaving that person is exploiting somebody's weakness and demanding lifelong servitude in return - that is the evil, not the poor desperate person who gives up their baby, or decides to travel in a container to the west to work in a sweatshop.

 

The bible counternances such behaviour - it makes explicit; you can take people not just to be endentured for years, but for their entire lives - that is the debt they can be forced to take on - no matter what they do, their lives are not theirs but their owners and they have to submit to that ownership and accept whether they are freed or not. All biblically countenanced.

 

And here we have Spook going I see no moral issue in this.

 

Grotestque - a Christian who will not admit the moral repugnance of someone demanding lifelong servitude to be exchanged for a fee.

 

That moral evil is alive and well in this world today - and causes untold hardship in sweatshops and brothels - and Spook, because of his old book pretends that there is no moral wrong.

[Evil Goblin]

Quote

Yes, the Bible does give reference to many historical events. Some has however been proven to be bogus - like the parting of the Red Sea, although anyone who believes this probably needs their head seeing to.

LDV - not quite so clear cut. The reference to the Red Sea is believed to be a translation error - the reference was originally to the Reed Sea, a small inland sea somewhat to the North of the Red Sea. A strong southerly wind would drive the water back so that the Southern end largely dried out. If the Exodus did occur, then the Reed Sea is a much more likely route for the fleeing Israelites to have taken on their way to Sinai.

As a matter of interest, Moses is believed to have had wide knowledge of how to get by in the Wilderness, due to the time he spent living amongst the Midianites (a desert people), and would have known all sorts of tricks, such as striking certain types of rock and getting water out of them (this trick is now a known fact).

[jimbms]

mmm notice no answer to my question spook

 

You have heard the word of The Lord. You have the option to accept in faith just as The Lord puts faith in you to try to sin no more after Jesus takes on the punishment for your sins, or chose to walk away.

 

The Lord through Jesus invites, he does not compel.

That does not answer my question or are you afraid to answer it because there is no way you can.

 

I have answered your question perfectly. It may not be the answer that you want or thet you like but that is your problem.

No you have not, you have not answer any part of my question, all you have done is to quote parrot fashion from some bullshit that has indoctranated you, you have not even touched on other religions or any proof. You and your fairy tales are one big con and you cannot prove otherwise.

[spook]

As ever you reverse the issue - you need to focus on the enslaver, not the inslaved compelled to sell themselves.

 

Use of the word “slave” or “enslaver” distorts the issue. It has become far too emotionally charged and related to the theft and abuse of Africans in The New World. Why not “bond holder”?

 

I'm not really suprised you don't see this as a moral issue - you have no problem with people being eternally punished for finite crimes, so its par for the course for you for someone to purchase another person to be used as they see fit for the rest of their slave's (oh sorry bondman's) life.

 

People are not being punished for finite crimes, they are being punished for refusing to accept the remission of their sins. You may not like it, it may jar on your ideas of right and wrong, but it is the way.

 

The person enslaving that person is exploiting somebody's weakness and demanding lifelong servitude in return - that is the evil, not the poor desperate person who gives up their baby, or decides to travel in a container to the west to work in a sweatshop.

 

There is certainly major wrongdoing involved there! Wrongdoing in so far as an illegal immigrant is a thief.

 

The bible counternances such behaviour - it makes explicit; you can take people not just to be endentured for years, but for their entire lives - that is the debt they can be forced to take on - no matter what they do, their lives are not theirs but their owners and they have to submit to that ownership and accept whether they are freed or not. All biblically countenanced.

 

 

And here we have Spook going I see no moral issue in this.

 

Grotestque - a Christian who will not admit the moral repugnance of someone demanding lifelong servitude to be exchanged for a fee.

 

That moral evil is alive and well in this world today - and causes untold hardship in sweatshops and brothels - and Spook, because of his old book pretends that there is no moral wrong.

 

If the sweat shops and brothels were run on biblical lines and to biblical rules then a very different situation would exist. But they do not and that is where the problem lies.

 

There is nothing wrong with a lasting contract of employment, because that is what we’re talking about, but there is a great deal wrong with abusing an employee or in some of the roles that an employer requires his contracted employee to take up.

[spook]

 

I have answered your question perfectly. It may not be the answer that you want or thet you like but that is your problem.

No you have not, you have not answer any part of my question, all you have done is to quote parrot fashion from some bullshit that has indoctranated you, you have not even touched on other religions or any proof. You and your fairy tales are one big con and you cannot prove otherwise.

 

You have your answer. What you do with it is down to you. My friend, I do hope you do not let foolish pride cloud your judgement. You can fight The Lord but you will NEVER win.