Burning Holy Books

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I am inclined to dismiss you as a troll given your highly polarised responses to EVERY issue. You disagree but don't feel you need to explain your disagreement to any serious degree and you seem apt to throw in insulting language to rile the reader.

 

My views are very controversial and I stupidly get wound up at others ideas. But you seem to not want to explain your points and half the time just flip off other people's comments.

 

You can be saved, you now know what you need to do, what the cost will be, and what will face you if you refuse His offer. Im not a troll, LDV, I live in the light. The light of Christ.

If this were true then you live in ignorance, not the light. A servile being wasting his thoughts on ancient superstitions that are not moral and degrade you as a human being. And the fact that there is not one shred of evidence for a God (nevermind a Christian one) and not evidence for a divine Jesus makes it all seem very silly.

 

And to accept that people who sin should go to hell. It makes my skin crawl.

[spook]

I am inclined to dismiss you as a troll given your highly polarised responses to every issue. You disagree but don't feel you need to explain your disagreement to any serious degree and you seem apt to throw in some aggressive language to rile the reader.

 

It’s a discussion forum, not a place of academic study. Feelings and sentiment have as much a place as defendable facts.

 

 

You can be saved, you now know what you need to do, what the cost will be, and what will face you if you refuse His offer. Im not a troll, LDV, I live in the light. The light of Christ.

 

If this were true then you live in ignorance, not the light. A servile being wasting his thoughts on ancient superstitions that are not moral and degrade you as a human being.

 

Wheres the immorality? Wheres the degradation? Is it a superstition and even if it was it’s a superstition it is a very good and decent guide to how to live a good and decent life. Anyway Ive dealt with the points that you offered earlier and shown the mistakes that you made.

 

And the fact that there is not one shred of evidence for a God (nevermind a Christian one) and not evidence for a divine Jesus makes it all seem very silly.

 

Look about you. Explain how the world, the solar system, the universe, everything can have been made if not by a power that we just cant get our minds round because its divine. Think about it this way, start by putting one hand on one ear and the other hand on the other. Your brain is in there between those two hands.

 

Now think how much volume is contained within that space. What is it, about one and a half litres or so?

 

Now think how big the known universe is.

 

Are you really so arrogant as to reject the proposition that if you can be a sentient being within that space between your ears a sentient being could not exist within the immensity of the universe as a part of that universe then you need that one and a half litres testing.

 

And to accept that people who sin should go to hell. It makes my skin crawl.

 

Aye well I can well understand why such might be the case for you but lets leave that, you have the answer to solving that problem.

 

Anyway you and others all had your sneers and had your insults and thats only to be expected. Whats sad is how many people slag off Christianity because they either don’t understand it or think its about churches or about restricting what people can do or is stupid or just about anything.

 

Christianity isnt about churches and theres more than a few churches that are very un Christian indeed, nor is it restricting on what people can do but as people learn about Christ and about themselves what happens is that people change what it is they want to do.

 

If anyone really wants to learn about Christianity there’s a thing called The Alpha Course that runs for a few weeks and lets people who are just interested in what Christianity is or who want to see if it has anything to offer them or even just to go and argue with a few Christians and its well worth having a look into. The Alpha Course is being run at a number of places on the Island starting October and details can be had from http://tinyurl.com/32f7hzg which shows what and where and when.

 

I think it would be best for the skeptics to think about a Baptist congregation because theres less emphasis on the church and a lot more on Christianity from my experience of being involved in Alpha in the past.

 

Like Christianity there’s nothing to loose, you even get a bite to eat into the bargain! Try it, itll be an eye opener no matter what.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

It’s a discussion forum, not a place of academic study. Feelings and sentiment have as much a place as defendable facts.

They do. But I question your intentions behind posting at times.

 

Wheres the immorality? Wheres the degradation? Is it a superstition and even if it was it’s a superstition it is a very good and decent guide to how to live a good and decent life. Anyway Ive dealt with the points that you offered earlier and shown the mistakes that you made.

Immorality in the belief about a hell where people are eternally punished. Submitting oneself to the authority of another. Believing in it's moral authority above all others and often believing that your morality comes from this thing.

Immorality in the killing of someone to atone for others sins. It's barbaric.

 

Degrading because it reduces people to nothing more than slaves of a imagine superbeing. And degrading because it rests on a psychological weakness to abandon reason for the sake of what feels good and wishful thinking.

 

Look about you. Explain how the world, the solar system, the universe, everything can have been made if not by a power that we just cant get our minds round because its divine. Think about it this way, start by putting one hand on one ear and the other hand on the other. Your brain is in there between those two hands.

What if I cannot explain? What means that it necessarily requires creation by a being and please go further and explain why it would have to be the Christian God.

 

Are you really so arrogant as to reject the proposition that if you can be a sentient being within that space between your ears a sentient being could not exist within the immensity of the universe as a part of that universe then you need that one and a half litres testing.

Are you really so arrogant to believe the world and universe was created for you and other humans? Really?

 

I do not reject the idea of a God completely. It just might be possible, but there is no evidence. The Christian God is almost certainly bullshit. Just plagiariased Judaism further plagiarised from earlier religions.

 

Aye well I can well understand why such might be the case for you but lets leave that, you have the answer to solving that problem.

Unlimited punishment for limited actions. Not very moral. And it really does serve to show how such a God is a dick.

 

Anyway you and others all had your sneers and had your insults and thats only to be expected. Whats sad is how many people slag off Christianity because they either don’t understand it or think its about churches or about restricting what people can do or is stupid or just about anything.

I understand enough to know what is wrong with it. And to understand that you have nothing, nothing to show the truth of your claims.

 

Like Christianity there’s nothing to loose, you even get a bite to eat into the bargain! Try it, itll be an eye opener no matter what.

There's plenty to lose. Wasted time spent thinking about nonsense, there's the lack of respect for oneself involves in submitting or obeying an authority without questioning such an authroity, the lack of any respect from others in claiming to place hopes or attributing personal achievement to God, the irrational decisions made based on faith. Far too high a price to be paid in this short life.

 

On your logic, I could tell you there's nothing to lose by embracing every religion that exists and has existed. Just to make sure you don't come a cropper at whatever rapture or ragnarrok happens.

[spook]

Immorality in the belief about a hell where people are eternally punished.

 

The punishment is for the sin of having learned about God and His wants from us and his offering to us but rejecting it. We are like gold being tested in the fire as described in Zachariah chapter 13 verse 9 :-

 

This third I will bring into the fire;

I will refine them like silver

and test them like gold.

They will call on my name

and I will answer them;

I will say, 'They are my people,'

and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'

 

Will you be gold, or will you prove to be the base metal LDV? You have the choice.

 

Submitting oneself to the authority of another.

 

That is the nature of life. In the eyes of God we are all equal but on this earth we are not. Our inequality and what comes from it forms part of the testing of ourselves and others.

 

Believing in it's moral authority above all others and often believing that your morality comes from this thing.

 

But it does!

 

Immorality in the killing of someone to atone for others sins. It's barbaric.

 

Where does that take place? If you mean the sacrifice made on YOUR behalf and on MY behalf by Jesus, that was not killing, that was Christ taking on the whole of all punishment for us all if we do but accept his gift.

 

Degrading because it reduces people to nothing more than slaves of a imagine superbeing.

 

Slaves have no choice. Lovers do what they want to do out of love. Love Christ and return his love for you and you do not act as a slave, you act as a lover out of love.

 

And degrading because it rests on a psychological weakness to abandon reason for the sake of what feels good and wishful thinking.

 

Only if you do not understand reason. The feeling good is a byproduct, and the wishful thinking is faith.

 

My friend, you say you understand Christianity and yet every word you write says that you do not. Please do not allow this ignorence condemn you to an eternity of suffering in return for a flash of self indulgence and hedonism incarnate. At least try an Alpha course, you will not be the only sceptic or the openly hostile there.

 

You wont be wasting time because you will come to see it isnt nonsense, nor will you loose self respect though you may loose false pride and decisions that you make wont be irrational but will be made with a moral basis that is sound, good, and proper.

 

Being a committed born again Christian isn’t about being a spoil sport or a bible basher or anything else like that. Its about having seen the light of Christ and all that is illuminated by it.

 

Try it. If its for you then you will know it as you learn, if you are only base metal to be used in the refining of the gold then at least you had your chance to be tested and not just left as unrefined ore that had its chance to be the most noble of metals but feared the furnace of faith and that is thrown away with the dross.

[Chinahand]

I have to say I find Spook a most unusual member of our community.

 

Your writing shows up a strong feeling towards the Jews, you are a right wing in your views and now you are professing the existence of hell (and brimstone?).

 

I'm intrigued!

 

Spook, what type of Godwalloper are you?

 

You believe in hell - so do you believe in the devil? Did man empower the devil through sin? Or did God? Does God countenance the devils existence? Does any of this have relevence to God's supposed omnipotence?

 

Do you also believe in demons and angels - do they wander the earth doing things? Are some sorts of illness, or behaviour, caused by demonic possession? Is it possible to identify such possession - how?

 

Do you believe God keeps tabs on you - reading your mind to check up on those sins of mind, as well as the ones of deed?

 

How old do you think the earth and universe are? Is the bible factual or allegorical?

 

Is it moral or immoral for a God to demand someone kill their son?

 

Is it moral to demand infinite punishment for finite crimes?

 

Did God create the universe knowing exactly what would happen in it, knowing exactly who would be saved and who would be damned. Can our free will change any of this? Or has God, being outside time, already seen your last breath, knows the final content of your soul and knows whether you sit by his side or not? - and has he known these things since the first moment of creation, or not? - and does he uphold creation to ensure this will occur?

 

Is it moral for God to absolve even the most evil people, and punish eternally any human being no matter how minor their errors, solely on their acceptance or rejection of worshipping one of his manefestations. Do you think God is genocidally over-sensitive in his need to be accepted?

 

The Bible (both old and new testaments) contains verses where God actively intervenes to harden people's hearts so they will be damned etc - reading these verses it seems God isn't willing to just rely on freewill to damn people and purposely intervenes to ensure it - is this moral?

 

Do you think it was OK for God to punish future descendents for the behaviour of their ancestors? and for him to massacre innocents with his plagues and ordered genocides? Or were these people not innocent, just because of blood or assosciation?

 

Do you also have no issue with God only intervening to save Christ and not all the other new born children killed by Herod? Why such a selfish intervention - he was altering the course of history by sending Mary and Joseph a dream, why not send one to all new mothers, so they could also save their children? Wouldn't a wider miracle be a better example of his miraculous power.

 

Do you believe God is good, simply because you have been told this by authority figures since your earliest memories or objectively looking at all the suffering and death in the world do you really think this is so?

 

And please don't say free will is the cause of this - unless you are going to acknowledge that God sends disease and natural disaster as a part of his anger at our sin. Do you believe that when a baby, saved from being crushed to death by the dead body of its mother, dies of tortured dehydration two days after an earthquake it is due to its free will? What does this baby's suffering say about an all loving, good God? Nothing? Objectively what do you think all loving means?

 

Pascal's wager says to me we must make a bargain with a tyrant or else he will torture us for eternity - how moral, or immoral we are, how hard we work for good, or ill, are irrelevent. It is worship and nothing but worship that God demands, and he punishes and upholds the most dreadful sufferings all to bring about his plan for creation and apocalypse.

 

I hope this is myth, for I cannot morally accept his plans and so must be damned.

 

Spook, if you believe this thread maybe divinely inspired, how do you think you should answer my questions?

[jimbms]

hehehehe spook, now I know you are taking the piss. Come on get real, jesus will save me, you crack me up. You cannot seriously tell me you worship some nomadic con artist tramp who ended up being nailed to a dod of wood because he was too thick to back down. Oh this really takes the biscuit, next you will be condemning LDV because he is gay, get real will you, come out of the dark ages, man has long ceased to be controlled by lies. Bloody hell if you only knew then she who must be obeyed and I would also be condemned to the deepest parts of hell for being hedonistic devients.mmm mind you that doesn't sound too bad, I bet it could be fun.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The punishment is for the sin of having learned about God and His wants from us and his offering to us but rejecting it. We are like gold being tested in the fire as described in Zachariah chapter 13 verse 9...

Will you be gold, or will you prove to be the base metal LDV? You have the choice.

Excuse me? What are you saying about choice?

 

That is the nature of life. In the eyes of God we are all equal but on this earth we are not. Our inequality and what comes from it forms part of the testing of ourselves and others.

'Nature of life'? No, I don't get what you're saying and how that relates to the issue of his authority.

 

But it does!

I disagree. The very idea that people had no morality until God arrived on the scene with commandments and his teachings is just ridiculous.

 

Where does that take place? If you mean the sacrifice made on YOUR behalf and on MY behalf by Jesus, that was not killing, that was Christ taking on the whole of all punishment for us all if we do but accept his gift.

Exactly, a blood sacrifice made on my behalf. You can't get more obscene than that. And it was no sacrifice, if presume you believe that Jesus was God in flesh.

 

I never agreed to it to have a human being slaughtered to stop some form of punishment for something I am supposedly guilty for.

And tell me what sort of punishment there was for us? Why was it necessary?

 

Slaves have no choice. Lovers do what they want to do out of love. Love Christ and return his love for you and you do not act as a slave, you act as a lover out of love.

So in order to not being a slave I HAVE to listen this character?

 

Only if you do not understand reason. The feeling good is a byproduct, and the wishful thinking is faith.

Then what do you understand by reason?

 

My friend, you say you understand Christianity and yet every word you write says that you do not.

I find this to be the usual argument from the religious. The non-religious just don't understand, do they?

 

You wont be wasting time because you will come to see it isnt nonsense, nor will you loose self respect though you may loose false pride and decisions that you make wont be irrational but will be made with a moral basis that is sound, good, and proper.

False pride in what? If you're the Christian, you're the one with the solipsism of believing that world was created for you.

 

I have a better moral basis than any Christian who genuinely believes that the killing of Jesus was good and moral and finds God to be moral. But I would even think you are more moral than God and Jesus. I would find it highly improbable that you would accept their authority unquestioningly and that your morality is solely derived from the Bible.

 

Being a committed born again Christian isn’t about being a spoil sport or a bible basher or anything else like that. Its about having seen the light of Christ and all that is illuminated by it.

Oh dear.

 

Try it. If its for you then you will know it as you learn, if you are only base metal to be used in the refining of the gold then at least you had your chance to be tested and not just left as unrefined ore that had its chance to be the most noble of metals but feared the furnace of faith and that is thrown away with the dross.

I am a base metal.

[spook]

I have to say I find Spook a most unusual member of our community.

 

People find me a most unusual member of any community!

 

Your writing shows up a strong feeling towards the Jews, you are a right wing in your views and now you are professing the existence of hell (and brimstone?).

 

I'm intrigued!

 

Spook, what type of Godwalloper are you?

 

I’m a Baptist. Born a Baptist and Baptist through and through.

 

You believe in hell - so do you believe in the devil? Did man empower the devil through sin? Or did God? Does God countenance the devils existence? Does any of this have relevence to God's supposed omnipotence?

 

The devil was the “Proud Vain Angel” who was cast down.

 

Do you also believe in demons and angels - do they wander the earth doing things? Are some sorts of illness, or behaviour, caused by demonic possession? Is it possible to identify such possession - how?

 

Yes and yes but I am not sufficiently skilled or knowledgable about such things as to know how to identify them but I would start by saying that if we have a cure then the disease is not demonic.

 

Do you believe God keeps tabs on you - reading your mind to check up on those sins of mind, as well as the ones of deed?

 

Yes.

 

How old do you think the earth and universe are? Is the bible factual or allegorical?

 

Billions of years old. The Bible is an imperfect combination of history and a source of good morality but morality that has changed over time and laws changed to match. For example being a poof was a death sentence way back whereas later in time David and Jonathan were at it like knives!

 

Is it moral or immoral for a God to demand someone kill their son?

 

The whole will of God can not be understood by anyone.

 

 

Is it moral to demand infinite punishment for finite crimes?

 

See above.

 

Did God create the universe knowing exactly what would happen in it, knowing exactly who would be saved and who would be damned.

 

I dont think so.

 

Can our free will change any of this?

 

Our free will can change our future. How people react to things we do out of our free will can affect their future.

 

Or has God, being outside time, already seen your last breath, knows the final content of your soul and knows whether you sit by his side or not? - and has he known these things since the first moment of creation, or not? - and does he uphold creation to ensure this will occur?

 

I dont believe such to be the case. I see our time on earth as the time within the furnace when the gold is refined.

 

Is it moral for God to absolve even the most evil people, and punish eternally any human being no matter how minor their errors, solely on their acceptance of rejection of worshipping one of his manefestations.

 

Jesus offers the choice. Jesus said there is no way except through me.

 

Do you think God is genocidally over-sensitive in his need to be accepted?

 

No.

 

 

Split in two at this point

[spook]

Part two

 

 

The Bible (both old and new testaments) contains verses where God actively intervenes to harden people's hearts so they will be damned etc - reading these verses it seems God isn't willing to just rely on freewill to damn people and purposely intervenes to ensure it - is this moral?

 

We are Gods creation, God uses us as he sees fit. God also decides on what will be done to people who he has directly affected.

 

Do you think it was OK for God to punish future descendents for the behaviour of their ancestors?

 

If you mean “unto the third and fourth generation” the bible is presenting not a curse as such but warning that the evil that a person has will act on future generations.

 

and for him to massacre innocents with his plagues and ordered genocides? Or were these people not innocent, just because of blood or assosciation?

 

It was Gods choice. We can not know the mind of God nor what he intends for them in the afterlife.

 

Do you also have no issue with God only intervening to save Christ and not all the other new born children killed by Herod?

 

Not at all.

 

Why such a selfish intervention - he was altering the course of history by sending Mary and Joseph a dream, why not send one to all new mothers, so the could also save their children? Wouldn't a wider miracle be a better example of his miraculous power.

 

No, it would have devalued the place that Jesus was to take and remove the importance of faith in our relationship with our creator.

 

Do you believe God is good, simply because you have been told this by authority figures since your earliest memories or objectively looking at all the suffering and death in the world do you really think this is so?

 

God is good because God is goodness. God so loved the world that he sent his only son etc.

 

And please don't say free will is the cause of this - unless you are going to acknowledge that God sends disease and natural disaster as a part of his anger at our sin.

 

But disease and disaster are the embodiments of an act of God, how can we know if these are good or not good because we don’t know why God does such things or the benefits that will occour.

 

Do you believe that when a baby, saved from being crushed to death by the dead body of its mother, dies of tortured dehydration two days after an earthquake it is due to its free will?

 

Of course not. It is the will of God.

 

What does this baby's suffering say about an all loving, good God?

 

God acts in mysterious ways.

 

Nothing? Objectively what do you think all loving means?

 

All loving. All loving does not mean always being nice and kind and gentle. The surgen that slices off a gangerous leg is hardly doing a nice thing and yet it is to the benefit of the person with gangrene.

 

Pascal's wager says to me we must make a bargain with a tyrant or else he will torture us for eternity - how moral, or immoral we are, how hard we work for good, or ill, are irrelevent.

 

God is not a tyrant.

 

It is worship and nothing but worship that God demands, and he punishes and upholds the most dreadful sufferings all to bring about his plan for creation and apocalypse.

 

The sufferings of the gold in the furnace.

 

 

I hope this is myth, for I cannot morally accept his plans and so must be damned.

 

You have the solution open to you.

 

Spook, if you believe this thread maybe divinely inspired, how do you think you should answer my questions?

 

I do not think this thread to have been divinely inspired but I have answered your questions as fully and as openly and as honestly as I can.

[spook]

hehehehe spook, now I know you are taking the piss. Come on get real, jesus will save me, you crack me up. You cannot seriously tell me you worship some nomadic con artist tramp who ended up being nailed to a dod of wood because he was too thick to back down. Oh this really takes the biscuit, next you will be condemning LDV because he is gay, get real will you, come out of the dark ages, man has long ceased to be controlled by lies. Bloody hell if you only knew then she who must be obeyed and I would also be condemned to the deepest parts of hell for being hedonistic devients.mmm mind you that doesn't sound too bad, I bet it could be fun.

 

 

Unless you accept Jesus then he will not save you. You will burn in hell. Such a shame.

[jimbms]

I couldn't resist:

 

Ezekiel 25:17 The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will KNOW my name is THE LORD when I lay MY VENGEANCE upon thee."

Ezekiel 25:17

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think, Spok, that you have sold out your humanity. This is especially obvious in the case of replying to Chinahand's questions about Abraham accepting that he should sacrifice his son, the genocides mentioned in the Bible, and belief that hell is acceptable if God thinks so.

 

Let me ask you, if God commanded you to kill your child or kill your whole family, would you do it? Would you consider your God moral to ask you to do this?

[When Skies Are Grey]

I think, Spok, that you have sold out your humanity.

 

Well he is part human part Vulcan.....

[mæŋksmən]

I didnt know god could read minds, thats me fucked.

[jimbms]