Burning Holy Books

[Chinahand]

... look at what happened to the Cathedral at York in 1984 and the statements that were being made by David Jenkins.

Can you just clarify - you think the fire at York Minster in 1984 was caused by God deliberately directing a lightning bolt to strike the building to express divine anger at the investiture of David Jenkins?

 

Do you really believe in the myth of a Virgin Birth - what did Jesus's DNA profile look like? Did the Virgin Mary also ascend bodily into Heaven? And if you disbelieve this Catholic myth - what is the difference?

 

Do you also subscribe to the theory that God also causes earthquakes and sends down his wrath on sinful towns?

 

Do you really believe the biblical destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah happened as explained?

 

Do you really believe Elijah caused caused fire to rain from heaven?

 

Or do you think these are allegorical and legendary myths to justify a nation's actions and to explain natural events?

 

If you discount the factual accuracy of Genesis why the belief in these legends?

 

Tower of Babel?

 

Parting the Red Sea?

 

A stick turning into a snake?

 

A talking donkey/ass?

 

Just how credulous are you Spook?

 

Do the denomically possessed twist their heads all the way round too? And when the demons are driven out do they possess pigs and make them rush into the sea and die?

 

Shivers - what a supertitious world you live in - some of those who reject your beliefs are satanically influenced and God reminds people of his anger with thunder and lightning. Oh my - the Enlightenment has not reached far, people remain in their self imposed immaturity embuing nature with their theological desires.

[Chinahand]

 

That was the law at that time. Who am I to question the law of the day? Especially Gods law.

 

 

The religious abnegating their moral responsibility and hence being silent in the face of barbarity.

 

[M]orality, understood as a system of reciprocal claim making, in which everyone is accountable to everyone else, does not need its authority to be underwritten by some higher, external authority. It is underwritten by the authority we all have to make claims on one another. Far from bolstering the authority of morality, appeals to divine authority can undermine it. For divine command theories of morality may make believers feel entitled to look only to their idea of God to determine what they are justified in doing. It is all too easy under such a system to ignore the complaints of those injured by ones actions, since they are not acknowledged as moral authorities in their own right. But to ignore the complaints of others is to deprive oneself of the main source of information one needs to improve one’s conduct. Appealing to God rather than those affected by one’s actions amounts to an attempt to escape accountability to one’s fellow human beings.

Elizabeth Anderson

 

You think torturing sinners for eternity is moral - you refuse to acknowledge the horror of that, but accepted it as God's will. That makes you profoundly amoral yourself - have some courage to say the God portrayed in your holy book is abhorant in the laws he ordained. Stoning adulterors and homosexuals and killing children for disrespecting their parents is evil, but you will justify it because it is in your holy book.

[jimbms]

Only recently practising male homosexuality was illegal, it follows that male homosexuals who practiced their perversion of the sex act were law breakers and deserved punishment for their criminality.

 

Today male homosexuality between consenting adults is not criminal so no secular punishment is appropriate as no criminality has been engaged in but when it was illegal the punishment was correct.

I have a feeling this thread is now going to get a lot more interesting, Queue LDV quite rightly moving up a gear.

[spook]

Can you just clarify - you think the fire at York Minster in 1984 was caused by God deliberately directing a lightning bolt to strike the building to express divine anger at the investiture of David Jenkins?

 

Yes.

 

Do you really believe in the myth of a Virgin Birth - what did Jesus's DNA profile look like? Did the Virgin Mary also ascend bodily into Heaven? And if you disbelieve this Catholic myth - what is the difference?

 

I believe in the Virgin Birth. I do not believe that Mary ascended into heaven and reject a very great deal that the Roman Catholic orginisation claims.

 

Do you also subscribe to the theory that God also causes earthquakes and sends down his wrath on sinful towns?

 

I subscribe to the belief that there are times when he does just that.

 

Do you really believe the biblical destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah happened as explained?

 

Yes.

 

Do you really believe Elijah caused caused fire to rain from heaven?

 

The Bible tells me that is what took place. I believe what the bible tells,

 

Or do you think these are allegorical and legendary myths to justify a nation's actions and to explain natural events?

 

No.

 

If you discount the factual accuracy of Genesis why the belief in these legends?

 

I discount the times in Genesis means the same thing as the measure of time that we now use. I do not reject all of Genesis.

 

Tower of Babel?

 

I believe

 

Parting the Red Sea?

 

Of course

 

A stick turning into a snake?

 

Yes.

 

A talking donkey/ass?

 

Yes.

 

Just how credulous are you Spook?

 

Not in the least. I have faith in The Lord and his power. He really IS the ALL mighty.

 

Do the denomically possessed twist their heads all the way round too? And when the demons are driven out do they possess pigs and make them rush into the sea and die?

 

Jesus cast out demons that entered into pigs. Fact.

 

Shivers - what a supertitious world you live in - some of those who reject your beliefs are satanically influenced and God reminds people of his anger with thunder and lightning. Oh my - the Enlightenment has not reached far, people remain in their self imposed immaturity embuing nature with their theological desires

 

You are entitled to your opinions. I am entitled to my knowledge, understanding, and faith.

[ballaughbiker]

Great isn't it? Spook = knowledge, understanding and faith and everyone else = opinions.

 

Spook, like I said previously, I don't care what superstitions you have, it's non of my business (unless you start making decision based on it that then affect my life). What does concern me however is people like you having power and one day maybe having access to the nuke button. Having read the superstitious mumbo-jumbo you keep regurgitating (and making up rules drawing parallels to entries an old story book as you go along)I dread that day when all this bollox overrides normal discussion and reasoned argument. Yeah I know "God made me do it!...."

 

You have tried to introduced the usual religious tactic of fear, y'know, eternal damnation unless you xxxx. How was supposed god's supposed love expressed in my mum's dreadful death despite her being devoutly christian? Sorry for the explicit detail, but she had a disease that ended by slowly drowning her in her own saliva. Unfortunately that life ending crescendo to the 2 year terminal disease took 5 days. Where was her god then?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

That was the law at that time. Who am I to question the law of the day? Especially Gods law.

I think this is where you haven't seriously thought this through. Why was it GOD'S law then what do you think about the state of things now in terms of blaspheming. Do you think people should be executed today? Would this be following God's law?

And you can question God's law, I've already worked out you have an independent morality.

 

Only recently practising male homosexuality was illegal, it follows that male homosexuals who practiced their perversion of the sex act were law breakers and deserved punishment for their criminality.

No, it doesn't mean that at all. People are not DESERVING of punishment jsut because they break the law. There are many laws that are simply wrong and many punishments that are wrong as well. An extreme example could be a tyrant who establishes a draconian law due to him being vindictive or just a bad man.

 

Today male homosexuality between consenting adults is not criminal so no secular punishment is appropriate as no criminality has been engaged in but when it was illegal the punishment was correct.

I do think you are just being silly now and wonder about your intentions in bringing up homosexuality.

I really can't think you're serious, because believing punishments are just if a law is broken is so obviously a flawed judgement, as it does not give any consideration to who establishes the law and for what reason.

[Lonan3]

I strongly suspect that spook is a sock-puppet and that we're all being wound up but, just to add to the 'discussion;'

 

If power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, where does that leave god?

[Chinahand]

So Spook you also reject evolution, geology*, paleantology, microbrial medicine etc?

 

You believe all humanity is decended from one family ship wrecked on a mountain in Turkey 4000 years ago - how come the genetic evidence is totally contradictory to this?

 

It looks like you are a day/age proponante in your understanding of Genesis - that makes you profoundly at odds with our scientific understanding of how the universe developed and life evolved - do you really believe the earth was formed before stars? PZ Myers has a good go showing the absurdity of such beliefs - in his usual style!

 

* which in sedimentary rocks involves biology - chalk is basically dead animals and you can very clearly see the evolution of micro fossils over time in these rocks.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Jesus cast out demons that entered into pigs. Fact.

I love it. They probably did something like that on the Isle of Man only a few centuries ago with getting rid of curses. But demons, now they're more exciting.

[jimbms]

Great isn't it? Spook = knowledge, understanding and faith and everyone else = opinions.

 

Spook, like I said previously, I don't care what superstitions you have, it's non of my business (unless you start making decision based on it that then affect my life). What does concern me however is people like you having power and one day maybe having access to the nuke button. Having read the superstitious mumbo-jumbo you keep regurgitating (and making up rules drawing parallels to entries an old story book as you go along)I dread that day when all this bollox overrides normal discussion and reasoned argument. Yeah I know "God made me do it!...."

 

You have tried to introduced the usual religious tactic of fear, y'know, eternal damnation unless you xxxx. How was supposed god's supposed love expressed in my mum's dreadful death despite her being devoutly christian? Sorry for the explicit detail, but she had a disease that ended by slowly drowning her in her own saliva. Unfortunately that life ending crescendo to the 2 year terminal disease took 5 days. Where was her god then?

First of all my condolances for what must have been a terrible time. A perfect example of proof that there cannot be a god otherwise it would only be the ones critical of him that would suffer thus.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Great isn't it? Spook = knowledge, understanding and faith and everyone else = opinions.

 

Spook, like I said previously, I don't care what superstitions you have, it's non of my business...

It should be. What if everyone believes in this rubbish? Would it not be disturbing in those around you indulged in such nonsense without a shred of evidence? It would do no good for your sanity. And what if everyone valued life less than you do by their fixation on the afterlife and thought that Christianity was moral, wouldn't it drag you down?

[ballaughbiker]

that we're all being wound up

That was my initial assessment but someone is putting in an awful lot of effort if it's just for that purpose.

[ballaughbiker]

But very few people believe 'it' LDV. Like I said, it's only when they get political power and/or want to go to war that it affects the lives of the vast non-believing majority. It definitely doesn't drag my life down. Not one bit! I also just love their simple deduction that you can't live a moral and good life unless you 'subscribe'. What nonsense!

 

Jim - thank you, it was indeed a terrible time. As an aside, have you noticed how people who are totally anti-euthanasia seem always to also be very religious? They trot out nonsense like, palliative care is always available and 'god will look after the patient' mantra. I don't really want to go into any more details but will finally add that mum was even denied morphine in the hospice as she wasn't in pain! She endured the last five days as aware of her surroundings as you and I. I was initially against euthanasia but I can guarantee that every right minded person having seen what she was forced to endure would change their minds. I did.

[jimbms]

Jesus cast out demons that entered into pigs. Fact.

magic, demonic bacon butties

[CJW]

This thread is the funniest thing I've read in ages.

Thanks Spook, pure genius.