simon Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Well I was in favour of "getting rid" of the birch. I believe that the IOM should pay attention to what our neighbours think is fair. Crumlin is right, just stick our fingers in our ears, and all will be well. Don't do that! Just talk through the appropriate channels. I don't reckon that this is an appropriate place for controversial and potentially actionable opinion. Support the forum ffs. It's a good forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purrrrrrrrrrry Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 The theory is simple... Don't post anything you wouldn't be entirely happy to say in a face to face encounter in a public arena whilst also being happy to deal with any possible repercussions of such statements. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm definately with Observer on this one. Also - if anything is worth complaining about in a forum, it's worth DOING something about too - all too often ppl are happy to whinge (endlessly, it seems!) but not actually try to address things. On another forum someone gave very irresponsible advice, which as a hospital worker I was appalled at and objected to. So - guess what happened - I end up getting a load of xxxx from ppl, shoot the messenger syndrome is all too alive and well The BS stopped just as quickly as it started when I suggested that those who felt so strongly about things should actually DO something about it, and post what they did and what response they got to it. The moderators here are in a difficult postion. They're faced with two other forums closed down, and they're not sure why. So they're trying their best to protect this one. I dont know what you posted, but I do disagree with ans that people shouldn't be allowed to post unsubstanciated comments. I mean, isn't that what an opinion is? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not sure why? I thought they did?? Hmmmm... Agree with you on "opinion" - and it is true in the world of academia also. Also, there are forums that are openly racist, etc. but are accessible without membership (am thinking about a link about Phil Lynott - I went to the mainsite and there are worldwide base sites which were eye-opening to say the very least) So how does that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 But these posts are abiding by the conditions arent they? Why have a local news section if you don't want local news discussing? I think it's a little unfair to dive on chuft as the reason the other forums were shut down. I don't blame people for being twichy, but it's perfectly valid to comment on the government. What we've got to be careful on is the gossip relating to private individuals and companies, thats where it seems to get difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Slim, government discussion is fine. Random, unsubstatiated personal abuse of Government officials is not. Unfortunately, chuft and FCMR view any moderation of their posts as a personal attack on them and fail to see any of the wider issues and potential headaches they could be causing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Oh, agreed. I didn't see the post, so I'm generalising. But the point I'm trying to make is that people shouldn't be afraid of posting opinions here vs things like government decisions is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 What we've got to be careful on is the gossip relating to private individuals and companies, thats where it seems to get difficult.I don't think that's difficult. I don't reckon that a public forum like this is a place for any matters relating to the private or legal matters which relate to individuals or companies. I don't think that it takes much 'common sense' to see the not very subtle differences between debating public policy and talking about individual private matters. Nor IMO should the matters of private meetings be discussed in public, here, by leaky and unreliable insiders who offer their own only subjective analysis. The UK press will investigate public people and will highlight the differences between what they say and what they do. And will have the power and influence to identify the private corruption of public people. We can debate the lack of a proper press investigation on the IOM. But it would be stupid to pretend that this site (or any other community forum) should stand in place for a lack of an investigative press. I don't think that people should hijack and destroy this forum by debating issues and posting subjective gripes which could cause problems for this site - and which belong properly in a different place. It would be 'king stupid to destroy this site by trying to raise controversial issues here. Especially when the web affords so many possibilities to do this elsewhere without causing any problems for this forum. Back in the 1970s and 80s there was a regular Private Eye correspondent who was generally assumed to be the wife of a member of the inner circle. In those days Private Eye carried a fair bit of Manx news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 What we've got to be careful on is the gossip relating to private individuals and companies, thats where it seems to get difficult. I don't think that's difficult. I don't reckon that a public forum like this is a place for any matters relating to the private or legal matters which relate to individuals or companies. I don't think that it takes much 'common sense' to see the not very subtle differences between debating public policy and talking about individual private matters. Why should a public forum not be a place to discuss legal or even private matters when the private matters affect the person who is making the post? As long as the ‘post’ is like an advertisement legal, decent, honest and truthful, and is not being posted for some malicious reason then where is the problem? Take the fiasco regarding the Primeshade work. Why should a person not write that they have been stitched up by a combination of poor workmanship and a totally disgusting attitude by Manx Gas? For that matter why should a person not raise the question that considering the past life of Alex Downie he isn’t taking a proactive role in this matter though he certainly could and in my opinion SHOULD be. With the Island population less than 80,000 people it’s not as if he’s going to be overworked – even if he had top run his entire ‘show’ on his own and without a staff to help him I suspect that he would still find time. In fact, with a matter that is so seriously affecting so many people, the actions being taken by ‘The Government’ seem to me to be pitiful. Nor IMO should the matters of private meetings be discussed in public, here, by leaky and unreliable insiders who offer their own only subjective analysis.Why not when the situation warrants it, providing that the contributor makes it clear that he ‘has heard’ or ‘has been told’. There are some VERY shady deals being struck behind closed doors and one set of doors in particular with Compass and Dividers above them. Providing that ‘in my opinion’ is clearly stated then that allows folks to determine for themselves if they should dismiss the subject, raise interest in it and watch for themselves, or become aware of a developing issue that warrants attention. With the absence of a free press on the island such access to incomplete information is vital as options for investigative journalism, often an unattractive business and frequently resulting in stories being found to be unfounded and being dropped, a key safety mechanism in society, simply do not exist. Investigative Journalism, or some similar means of disclosing dealings that are less than in the public good, by its very existence provides a degree of discipline and control over the behaviour and actions of those with the power, either by being in Government or being influential in Business. That is probably the most valid reason of all for the existence of an open public forum where unsubstantiated issues can be carefully and sensitively raised above the parapet. Internet Public Forums are the best means of providing visibility of things that would otherwise have invisible. But it would be stupid to pretend that this site (or any other community forum) should stand in place for a lack of an investigative press. I don't think that people should hijack and destroy this forum by debating issues and posting subjective gripes which could cause problems for this site - and which belong properly in a different place. I do understand the point that this or any forum is not a bit for bit replacement for a true investigative press, but in the utter absence of an investigative press, in fact the situation goes far beyond that in that the press is de facto censored by the every bodies that SHOULD be subject to investigative journalism, isn’t something far better than nothing? I would much rather have 10% - or even 1% of something than 100% of sod all. It would be 'king stupid to destroy this site by trying to raise controversial issues here. Especially when the web affords so many possibilities to do this elsewhere without causing any problems for this forum.Where does the web afford ANY possibilities to raise in an open public forum contentious issues specific to the misdeeds of the Manx politicians, of Manx based businesses and Businessmen? Manx Chat does provide a place where some issues can be raised but that is not a PUBLIC forum as one has to be a member of the forum to read let alone post there. Back in the 1970s and 80s there was a regular Private Eye correspondent who was generally assumed to be the wife of a member of the inner circle. In those days Private Eye carried a fair bit of Manx news. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> two points. Firstly and most obviously that is at least 20 years in the past. Secondly is that Private Eye was above all else a satirical magazine and one that was most certainly not likely to be found on the coffee table of Mrs Kelly of Colby. It is precisely the people who would not be likely to read Private Eye that misdeeds, malpractice, bad government, and simple bloody stupid decisions being made by those in office need to be highlighted so that Mrs Kelly of Colby can understand just who it is that she is voting for or is going to buy her new TV from. Manx Net Forum had become such a forum. It was precisely as a result of its success that it was feared and brought down. If it wasn’t doing a good and effective job it would in all probability still be up and running. The real problem is that when someone gets down into the gutter where the politics are they suddenly find themselves exposed to the attacks of the vermin and slime that are the indigenous life forms that live there, don’t like it, and prefer to return to where the air seems cleaner and leave the swamp life to carry on their foul ways unhindered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Why should a public forum not be a place to discuss legal or even private matters when the private matters affect the person who is making the post?A forum - yes. This forum - no. IMO. Where does the web afford ANY possibilities to raise in an open public forum contentious issues specific to the misdeeds of the Manx politicians, of Manx based businesses and Businessmen? Manx Chat does provide a place where some issues can be raised but that is not a PUBLIC forum as one has to be a member of the forum to read let alone post there. Have you read this thread? There are various very obvious and relatively easy ways in which an untouchable Manx forum could easily be set up. You could even arrange it yourself, if it's important to you. If your forum is to have any credibility or useful purpose then it will still require moderation and editing by serious people. So you'd need a full time staff to monitor it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FCMR Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 Well said Rog,lets hope that some of what you have posted is taken in. As for the comment made by Ans that I have a problem with my postings being altered is not totally true, I do object to be slaged off every time I do post. Chuft does have a certain agenda and thats fine by me, if fact he has helped me out legally for which I thank him. Ans has a problem of beleiving what some post and he will come back with a sarky over this, all the Time he asks for the proof, the proof in my postings is that I put my true name to it and have no fear in what I post. Manxnet was feared as Rog put it, because it was successfull, some of the postings that were put up made the crap run down the politicians legs. If People dont speak out openly how would we of found out about the dealings of a certain MHK, to which it has now been proved by an other MHK, yes these forums done it, they gave the amunition needed by Peter Karran to go for the truth in Tynwald. As I have already told Ans by PM< i will not be drawn into a certain issue, not because of any Legal problems but its just a case of not showing ones hand any more. Edited***************************************************************** and then you will ask why did you not tell us on the forums. To the moderators as Ive said before you do a thankless job, which we do accept, but please be a bit more fair over matters and maybe give a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 its just a case of not showing ones hand any more. Over the next couple of months something will come out in the courts that is going to shock quite a lot of people, :-) See even that could be taken as a subtle threat in relation to your court case. The implication is that if your case continues then some serious piece of information - not yet in the public domain - will become known. And you've put the word out. So it seems to me that you are still trying to use the forums directly in relation to your own case. Given that many (most) of us will at least know who is involved in your case - so I suppose this thread might now have to be deleted or, at least, edited. Whoever the people involved in the case were, the situation would be the same. All of which is obviously only my subjective opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 What I wish is that people would remember that the forums are about so much more than the Local News and International News sections. It is about having laugh, music, writing, sharing computer tips and interacting with strange and humorous people. But what has happened is all this stuff has been ignored and we've been shoved from pillar to post , the image of the forum posters in general tarnished by a small section of posters, who want to air either a series of right-wing diatribes, or the latest local political skeet. And do you know what, both these sections are boring and irrelevant to the forums. Get rid of them, so we can go back to having a laugh. Where is the humour on the forums any more? Why don't we see the likes of Monkey_Magic and Mrs T any more. I would suggest it is because a small group of people have decided to use these forum for their own agenda are sucking the life and vitality out of the forums. Well let them go elsewhere for their tedious discussions on who said what to who, and let's recover from their destructive presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 And do you know what, both these sections are boring and irrelevant to the forums. Local news is relevant to any Manx forum. I find it a lot more interesting that the Writers forum for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Not necessarily it is not relevant to Manx Bands for example. Just because it is Manx does not by default make it of relevance to this forum. If you look at it - Mount Murrey, Flandersgate etc have had much less of an impact on my life than the closure of the previous forums, the increased lack of humour here, and the abscence of some decent posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 The recent forums have all had "Manx" in their name. Local (Manx) news is more relevant to such a forum than, say, writing and photography are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 You are missing the point. The fact is the misuse of Local News has undermined the more interesting things on the forums. It has become a liability to the rest of us and it should go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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