Mezeron & Steam Packet Master Thread

[cheeky boy]

Why should there be a freight levy to pay peoples trips away.

 

There should be no levy on any of it.

 

Agreed. It's as if road haulage were expected to fund coach travel.

 

They are funding it at the moment if SPC's comments are true. It is almost a mantra from them that freight subsidises passengers

 

My suggestion was to take that subsidisation out of the hands of the operator and use it as an alternative to the UA as a method of maintaining a passenger service

 

I was also thinking the importance of passengers visiting the Island in terms of tourist revenue

[Lost Login]

There are a fair few on here who believe the user agreement should be scrapped and that it would fine if SP or whoever went to the wall. There seems to be a belief that somebody will step into the breach and provide both passenger and freight services.

 

If that resulted in a new operator comeing in and the IoM was left with one roro boat which could take a few passengers and cars which only did one round trip a day year round to say Birkenhead say taking 6 hours each way leaving mid day and mid night respectively would or should that be acceptable to the IoM. Maybe they might hire in another boat in the summer to cover holiday demand. Would or should that be acceptable?

 

Should they be left to charge what they like? Maybe they only really want the freight work so prices for passengers go through the roof, Is that acceptable? Maybe they basically want to operate only at full capacity or near to it so can maybe they can only accomodate 90% of what they could transport. The other 10% misses can not be delivered because it is not worth another company covering.

 

Basically if free market economics ends up giving the IoM a very poor service because that is all the market will stand do those who say there should be no supports, assistance intervention believe that holds true no matter how poor or expensive the service gets.

[gazza]

Why should there be a freight levy to pay peoples trips away.

 

There should be no levy on any of it.

 

Agreed. It's as if road haulage were expected to fund coach travel.

 

They are funding it at the moment if SPC's comments are true. It is almost a mantra from them that freight subsidises passengers

 

My suggestion was to take that subsidisation out of the hands of the operator and use it as an alternative to the UA as a method of maintaining a passenger service

 

I was also thinking the importance of passengers visiting the Island in terms of tourist revenue

 

so does that include air fares as well.

because if it was a levy put on that had to be paid.

you can sure as shit see the aircraft companys kicking off about unfair playing fields. which they would have every right to.

 

Just because the SP used fright to sub the passangers fairs (which we have to take there word for it and whos to say he aint lieing) It becomes something complety diffrent when gov impose this.

[manshimajin]

Basically if free market economics ends up giving the IoM a very poor service because that is all the market will stand do those who say there should be no supports, assistance intervention believe that holds true no matter how poor or expensive the service gets.

How do you feel if it ends up with a similar or improved service from a company with less debt to service out of its profits? There seems to be room to rationalise the services currently on offer along the lines of more appropriate and reliable fleet and service to one port in the UK and one in Ireland. Would that be a bad thing?

[pongo]

My suggestion was to take that subsidisation out of the hands of the operator and use it as an alternative to the UA as a method of maintaining a passenger service

 

If Mr Robertshaw's article is accurate (and you made similar observations too) then it is intervention which has ultimately resulted in higher fares (the debt etc) . And as John Wright has said - the island does not need fast ferries.

 

Basically if free market economics ends up giving the IoM a very poor service because that is all the market will stand do those who say there should be no supports, assistance intervention believe that holds true no matter how poor or expensive the service gets.

How do you feel if it ends up with a similar or improved service from a company with less debt to service out of its profits? There seems to be room to rationalise the services currently on offer along the lines of more appropriate and reliable fleet and service to one port in the UK and one in Ireland. Would that be a bad thing?

 

If there were no Australian SPCo and no UA - one or more of the other Irish Sea ferry services would surely want to pick up any genuinely viable passenger and vehicle traffic. Maybe less expensive.

 

The best outcome is a basic service with very little slack - ie only servicing demand. Granted that might mean there not being a full passenger and vehicle service everyday.

[Lost Login]

Basically if free market economics ends up giving the IoM a very poor service because that is all the market will stand do those who say there should be no supports, assistance intervention believe that holds true no matter how poor or expensive the service gets.

How do you feel if it ends up with a similar or improved service from a company with less debt to service out of its profits? There seems to be room to rationalise the services currently on offer along the lines of more appropriate and reliable fleet and service to one port in the UK and one in Ireland. Would that be a bad thing?

 

I basically agree there there is a need to rationalise and I would be happy for the Ben in effect to continue its twice daily rotations and the Mannanan to stay on the Liverpool route during the summer provided it generally does operate at its proper pace. Family and friend who have used the Mannanan to visit the IoM generally gave favourable feed back.

 

I would be very happy to see competition, where I do not agree with some posters and I have concerns is that whether it is the SP or a new operator who operate the route it has to result in certain minimum criteria. If that happens through the free market great but I have very grave doubts it will especially if ferrying passengers does not make a profit or not when what many might consider a reasonable fare is charged. In those cicumstances how do you marry up the companies desireto make a profit with the IoM's desire for a level of service. I can only see that via some sort of support or intervention. What and how that should be I will admit I struggle with.

[Lost Login]

so does that include air fares as well.

because if it was a levy put on that had to be paid.

you can sure as shit see the aircraft companys kicking off about unfair playing fields. which they would have every right to.

 

Air fares are already subsidised as the airport does not charge a level of fees that enable it to cover its costs? If they did many airlines would pull out and fares would rocket!

[Lost Login]

If Mr Robertshaw's article is accurate (and you made similar observations too) then it is intervention which has ultimately resulted in higher fares (the debt etc) . And as John Wright has said - the island does not need fast ferries.

 

There is a difference between need and want. We do not need many things however in this day and age I believe we should have a fast craft. I certainly much prefer the fast craft but I also think it is important in presenting an overall image and impression of the IoM as being modern up to date.

 

If there were no Australian SPCo and no UA - one or more of the other Irish Sea ferry services would surely want to pick up any genuinely viable passenger and vehicle traffic. Maybe less expensive.

 

Presumably they would wish to pick up any genuinely viable passenger and freight traffic. But what about the % that might be viable.

 

 

The best outcome is a basic service with very little slack - ie only servicing demand. Granted that might mean there not being a full passenger and vehicle service everyday.

 

But that is the million dollar question if they were only servicing demand and wee were left with a much reduced service as the ferry is deemed as a vital part of our transport infrasructure? Would it be acceptable if say the only way to get off the Island would be to fly?

[manxman8180]

If there were no Australian SPCo and no UA - one or more of the other Irish Sea ferry services would surely want to pick up any genuinely viable passenger and vehicle traffic. Maybe less expensive.

Firstly, I'm not too sure they would really want to pick it up. The numbers are tiny compared to the likes if Irish Ferries. Plus, the UA has only been here since 1996 (IIRC), so even during a time when (supposedly) there was greater passenger traffic due to Tourism, no other operator fancied the routes, other then the brief Sealink / Manx Line era.

 

Even this operation was heavily geared towards the feight market, certainly initially.

 

Secondly, if they did want the business (it may be more attractive if there were no other operator should the SP go under) we would probablhy end up with very limited sailing, as they would either add the Island as part of a sailing 'triangle' or they would just provide the odd sailing, ensuring maximum vessel utilisation. This would potentially lead to very limited choice of travel times as a previous poster mentioned above.

[browser23]

Seems to be a lot of chat about this subject, some interesting reading, perhaps somebody more informed can comment on this observation ,

 

IomSPC has lost a large percentage of its freight business, IomSPC insists that passenger/car fares are subsdised by its freight business.

 

IomSPC states that profits will now be at an unacceptable level, and that various cost reductions within IomSPC are inevitable, in conjunction with higher fares.

 

Surely if any company loses a large percentage of a business which it is using to subsidise another part of its operation, then all that is left would be the loss making part of the business.

 

If the profits that are left are unacceptable, ( still profit, not loss ), then this can only mean that the freight business left must be an enormous cash cow or that the claims of passenger subsidisation are perhaps exaggerated.

[theambo]

Quote of the day: http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/10m_lost_revenue_at_steam_packet_1_2737393

 

Steam Packet chief executive Mark Woodward says the launch of competition by Mezeron was ‘unexpected’.

 

The threat has come not from another roll-on, roll-off operator but from a lift-on, lift-off service where containers are craned onto the vessel.

 

‘It’s old technology – nobody would have guessed it was going to make a comeback,’ says Mr Woodward.

 

 

 

In fact the technology is so outdated thats why most of the freight in the world is moved by container, which as it happens is lifted on and off ships. The man clearly believes the manx public are morons !

[GD4ELI]

Quote of the day: http://www.iomtoday....acket_1_2737393

 

Steam Packet chief executive Mark Woodward says the launch of competition by Mezeron was 'unexpected'.

 

The threat has come not from another roll-on, roll-off operator but from a lift-on, lift-off service where containers are craned onto the vessel.

 

'It's old technology – nobody would have guessed it was going to make a comeback,' says Mr Woodward.

 

 

 

In fact the technology is so outdated thats why most of the freight in the world is moved by container, which as it happens is lifted on and off ships. The man clearly believes the manx public are morons !

 

Woodward was caught with his trousers down, it's a wonder he didn't inest in Callow's Yard as well. He's an example of an all too typical Manx company CEO - arrogant.

[Lost Login]

In fact the technology is so outdated thats why most of the freight in the world is moved by container, which as it happens is lifted on and off ships. The man clearly believes the manx public are morons !

 

Or maybe you want to have a go you are not prepared to accept anything he says.

 

Most freight around the world may be by containers but we are not talking about shipping internationally in massive carriers we are talking about short haul transport. From a lay persons point of view intrinsically what MW says about containers appear about right as when I travel I see an awful lot of goods being shipped between UK and France, UK and Ireland on ro-ro

[gilf_uk]

The SPCo is impaired due to it vast loans, and it now looks like the loss of the freight will signicantly affect it's ability to service it's debt.

 

So what will happen? Well it may well go into administration. It has £20m of assets and c£180m in loans, and a UA which has been previously valued at c£100m (select comittee report) now valued at significantly less.

 

So the company becomes unable to service it's debt and enters administration - the bank sells the assets of the company to recoup some of it's loss, along with the UA agreement, either as a job lot (pre-packaged) or someone buys the assets and starts again, but without the level of borrowing that it once had.

 

The company itself is and has for the majority been profitable, it will still be profitable after the loss of the freight contracts, if you exclude the need to service the bank loans. So the bank will have a debt debtor, and may only recoup 10% minimum of it's loan.

 

The effect on the Isle of Man? Possibly a little disruption while the market sorts itself out, but another operator (whether an external company or a reincarnation of SPCo) will step into the breach, using the same skeleton of the steam packet - we may even have continous service.

 

The SPCo shouldn't be allowed to renegotiate the UA just because it has now found a risk that it had not identified previously - they made a business decision to sign the UA, I'm sure if we went back to negotiate it because the IoM Govt had identified a risk they would have laughed us out of the room.

 

MW & SPCo is on edge and threatening everyone with cuts in service and cuts in jobs, as it's his job and his company on the line - nothing else. If SPCo folds, he will almost certainly be out of a job, but there is a demand for ferry services from the IoM, therefore there will be a supply.

[ballaughbiker]

Just wondered how much freight would have to subsidise pax if they didn't have the two gas guzzling unreliable cats? Its nice to be in the pool in 2.5 hours but its not essential.