Conservatives Forcing People To Work

[jimbms]

In other words you refuse to answer the questions because it does not suit you or is the truth...

Because nobody else requires others to explain their familial, education, and employment background to ascertain if something someone says is true. It's not relevant.

 

From all I see it is this type of envy of normal society that is driving the constant bitterness and hatred of society and it's ideals as it stands, that emits from your poisonous mind, it seems to me you have decided that if you can never have it you will instead attack and hope to undermine it.

I don't have a hatred of society. Just hate certain aspects of how it functions. So do you! Shall we talk about your dislike of how criminals are treated?

Perfect example, again you avoid the questions and instead attempt to counter it with asking another question added to the fact you cherry pick the bits you want. For your answer refer to my previous statement to me no other answer is needed like it or lump it that is all you are getting.

[pongo]

Alternatively why not put all the existing national and local state workers on rates and conditions equivalent to unemployment benefit ? Doing useful work in the community - like collecting taxes, digging holes in the road.

 

The basic rate should be that, with increases for additional responsibility.

 

A great deal of the work delivered by local authorities, though valuable to the public in terms of the services being provided such as bin men and street cleaners, could almost be done by trained monkeys.

 

I was being sarcastic. Nobody was supposed to agree with that suggestion.

[Lonan3]

The current UK minimum wages are:

 

£5.80 to £5.93 an hour for workers aged 21 and over

 

£4.83 to £4.92 an hour for workers aged 18 to 20

 

£3.57 to £3.64 an hour for workers aged 16 to 17

 

Jobseekers Allowances are:

 

Single people, aged under 25 £51.85 per week

 

Single people, aged 25 or over £65.45 per week

 

No one should be paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do.

[HeliX]

The current UK minimum wages are:

 

£5.80 to £5.93 an hour for workers aged 21 and over

 

£4.83 to £4.92 an hour for workers aged 18 to 20

 

£3.57 to £3.64 an hour for workers aged 16 to 17

 

Jobseekers Allowances are:

 

Single people, aged under 25 £51.85 per week

 

Single people, aged 25 or over £65.45 per week

 

No one should be paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do.

 

 

Arugably since they have to do 4weeks once a year, they're not under the minimum wage yearly.

[MilitantDogOwner]

The current UK minimum wages are:

 

£5.80 to £5.93 an hour for workers aged 21 and over

 

£4.83 to £4.92 an hour for workers aged 18 to 20

 

£3.57 to £3.64 an hour for workers aged 16 to 17

 

Jobseekers Allowances are:

 

Single people, aged under 25 £51.85 per week

 

Single people, aged 25 or over £65.45 per week

 

No one should be paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do.

 

 

Arugably since they have to do 4weeks once a year, they're not under the minimum wage yearly.

 

This is of course on top of the other benefits they would be receiving.

[jimbms]

and minimum wage is taken hourly only not weekly monthly or annualy.

[Chinahand]

Pongo I was responding to this:

Moving forward there will be more and not fewer unemployed as the need for workers decreases. There is not enough work left to do. This will also be compounded by the need for existing workers to retire much later because pensions will not be affordable. The US and Europe seem to be banking on the gentrification of the so called *developing* countries to provide new markets into which to ultimately sell financial instruments, insurance, intellectual property etc. There are likely going to be food shortages.

 

Making the unemployed pick up litter is a complete diversion from the chaos.

If you think I am just extrapolating from a neutral statement then I'm going to disagree - I feel this is melodrama of the worst sort.

 

Which bit do you specifically disagree with ?

Most specifically the bit about there not being enough work left to do, of course. Hence my response that there is 1) lots of jobs that need doing within society, and lots of innovations needed to do these jobs efficiently/productively and 2) little risk to the general economy of jobs disappearing to China (some sectors certainly, but purely and simply not everything is tradeable and local knowledge is vital in large parts of the economy, and in many sectors the UK is more productive than China).

 

This then links in with Evil Goblin's gloom and doom about material shortages and environmental damage - I see these as important areas for innovation to occur - less waste, less environmental impact.

 

The idea that multiple millions will be workless implies economies won't react to surpluses I see no evidence for this whatsoever. Certainly in the 1930s and 1970s policy mistakes did create labour surpluses, but they quickly disipated and societies can't bear 10% unemployment for long and simply adjusts. Its happened before it'll happen again.

[pongo]

2) little risk to the general economy of jobs disappearing to China (some sectors certainly, but purely and simply not everything is tradeable and local knowledge is vital in large parts of the economy, and in many sectors the UK is more productive than China).

 

Again. I have not talked of a risk of jobs disappearing to China,China. Or to anywhere else. I have not mentioned China,China. You are the one who keeps wanting to talk about China, China.

 

You seem to be projecting.

[Chinahand]

So Pongo why do you think there won't be work left to do? Do tell.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

One way to question whether something is ethical is to ask what if everyone behaved this way.

 

If everyone behaved in the way LDV advocates the welfare state would obviously collapse.

It's not a fitting way of evaluating the ethics, as if all people did not participate in waged work then there would be a collapse of the State and the economic system as we know it. It wouldn't simply mark the end of the welfare state.

And it is something of an pointless matter to consider, as a situation of mass non-structural unemployment would not occur.

 

That brings us right back to the challenge of what is the alternative - Lu Xun, one of the most perceptive writers I know, wrote:

The alternative is to seek ways to democratise workplaces. Whether this is to be achieved by revolution or gradually I do not know and I do not know which is best.However, I think the former is more likely. Minds have to put to work to determine what is wanted, how best it is achieved and maintained upon an awareness of socialist/anarchist thinking and a challenge to media and state propaganda and corporation public relations propaganda.

 

LDV is a romatic poet, just like Mao Zedong - an unrealistic idealist - who only dreams of the destruction of the current system, he has nothing to replace it with other than barter and the abolition of money - hint hint LDV, was this a successful policy when Pol Pot attempted it?

Well I assume that such a society will be better than the one we currently live in. As for Pol Pot, do you seriously believe he was a person committed to the freedom of workers? His regime was worse than the one it replaced.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

That brings us right back to the challenge of what is the alternative

 

Democratic and fair systems of orders are unsustainable. Unfair and undemocratic systems of orders are equally unsustainable. The idea that there are workable alternative puts you in the same camp as the Marxists and Christians etc. It's just chaos

That's interesting. What do you believe is sustainable and where do you lie in terms of political opinion?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Perfect example, again you avoid the questions and instead attempt to counter it with asking another question added to the fact you cherry pick the bits you want. For your answer refer to my previous statement to me no other answer is needed like it or lump it that is all you are getting.

You're not getting it, Jimbms. Irrelevant questions made for the purpose of writing off another's arguments on the basis that someone has an grudge or an issue are not questions to be answered.

I wouldn't demand answers from you in respect of your experiences and background to determine whether to validate your comments.

 

D'ya get it?

[pongo]

So Pongo why do you think there won't be work left to do? Do tell.

 

You've done it again! I did not say that there "won't be work left to do". I said that there will not be "enough" work. Which is different - and already true .. hence unemployment.

 

So I already referenced one trend - which is the cost of pensions meaning that govts require people to work longer into old age. This is a significant factor especially at a time when education funding is cut. It means more people after existing jobs - at both ends of life. A trends which will surely affect all societies as they mature. Meaning that everywhere people work, there will be more people after fewer jobs.

 

I don't see where the growth is going to come from to solve the existing issues even without the increased call on resources.

[jimbms]

Perfect example, again you avoid the questions and instead attempt to counter it with asking another question added to the fact you cherry pick the bits you want. For your answer refer to my previous statement to me no other answer is needed like it or lump it that is all you are getting.

You're not getting it, Jimbms. Irrelevant questions made for the purpose of writing off another's arguments on the basis that someone has an grudge or an issue are not questions to be answered.

I wouldn't demand answers from you in respect of your experiences and background to determine whether to validate your comments.

 

D'ya get it?

You constantly avoid questions people ask of you because you are incapable or cannot refute the statement

D'ya get it?

[Evil Goblin]

Sorry, China, but I think you are exhibiting something of a Pollyanna attitude to the undoubted and massive problems which the World will face over the coming decades. Unless we face up to these things realistically we have little hope of coping with them. I think Pongo is much closer to reality than you are on this matter, which, frankly, surprises me, as you are usually very prescient.