Conservatives Forcing People To Work

[Evil Goblin]

LDV - it would be illuminating if, rather than merely reacting with criticisms to events, you explained to us just how your society would be organised and operate, socially and economically. I suspect that it would prove, like Marxist "solutions", to be a highly idealistic but practically unworkable proposition.

I, and no doubt others, are awaiting your view of how society and the economy should be organised.

[Matt Bawden]

LDV I've now given up with regard to the seies of questions. I still however, find your stance on society as that of a petulant teenager, you give a lot of critisms and offer no viable alternative, you intend to tear down and yet are unable to rebuild. Hatred of something is fine and to remove it is fine but surely to god you need to replace it with something tenable, just leaving it to chance and people to sort out will only bring about chaos and anarchy to eventually be replaced by order which will more than likely be some more of what we've already had and the cycles continue to go round.

 

I believe we are on a linear path and not one of perpetual cycles so cool your jets and be patient things will change but only gradually, and they certainly won't change any quicker because some gobsh**e who has in some parts fooled some into thinking he is articulate and intellectual enough to not work and has utter contempt for those that have more than he has (due to the possibilty that you may be incapable of acquiring/acheiving things, for example there are those that have lost their legs who get on and make the best of their circumstances and there are those that sit around whining with contempt at those who still have their legs), but please feel free to think that you and you alone are right as I am sure that that will bring you some kind of inner peace.

 

If I thought for one moment that your ideals were based on the good of the people I would support atleast a few of your opinions, however I am more inclined to imagined that your ideals are laid upon the foundations of bitterness, envy and self importance.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Matt Bawden - Good one, just as I thought. Did you honestly think it was likely that you would get an answer to your questions? As you have demonstrated, you are only interesting in discerning whether I am just jealous, envious, or self importance because you think that anything motivated by these would be reason enough to write-off what I am saying.

Should I ask what newspapers you read, what you schooling/education was like, and whether your parents brought you up to be dim just so I know whether your posts are worth responding to?

 

You sound totally clueless as to what my politics are. One minute you're mentioning Stalin and then my supposed desire to just tear society down for its own sake. Where have I said any of this? I would propose that an alternative to the current system be found by trying to determine how best to at least democratise workplaces, although I think this is only possibly by reaching communism. It has never really been tried, so its viability is not certain but I believe it is worth trying. And it is most certainly worth giving attention to how it is achievable and maintained.

 

I believe we are on a linear path and not one of perpetual cycles so cool your jets and be patient things will change but only gradually

Things will change? I presume you mean for the better, but what's your evidence for thinking that they will on their own? Do you think that society just changes on its own?

 

Also, I am not here on MF to make changes to society. Secondly, I don't hold people in contempt who have more than I do. And lastly, I am most certainly not the only person who holds such views. That really does demonstrate how naive you are to alternative political thinking.

 

You don't agree with my ideals, so you therefore have a very different idea of what the good of the people is. It is your naivety and your own particular understanding of society that leads you think that self importance drives my politics. Howeever, you could be right about envy and anger, but if this were true why would the problem with it be? What do you think working class politics is based upon?

 

Now may I ask you what you uprbinging was like, what work you do, and whether you have children in order to assess why it is so you write such odd stuff that demonstrates your naivety?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

 

I, and no doubt others, are awaiting your view of how society and the economy should be organised.

It should be a society where people can govern themselves through have personal governance over the decisions that affect them and over their work. The only society that could offer this appear to a communist society or a non-communist anarchist society. I am inclined to think that anarcho-communism (with a gift economy) is the most attractive and viable means in order to maximise freedoms. I can't tell you what day the bins will be collected or the exact process by which workplaces will coordinate their operations.

Anyway, it seems common sense to identify the problems and then think about solutions. What's with this demand for instance solutions before any recognition that anything is wrong, nevermind that attention should be given to addressing the problems?

[jimbms]

mmmmm love the latest development 3 job offers then you get no benifits, so come on LDV now tell us that isn't fair, your great unwashed idle bastards are now being given the choice of applying for and selecting 3 jobs, if they still decide not to play along with tthe rest of decent society then society will play along with them and likewise reject them.

[Cambon]

, what you schooling/education was like,

 

I think Matt's questions have been answered. and his point proven correct.

[Cambon]

Anyway, it seems common sense to identify the problems and then think about solutions.

We know the problems. There are a load of lazy bastards who will not contribute to the commune, but expect the commune to support them for no return. At the same time, those people have the audacity to complain that the commune does not like the fact that they refuse to contribute and have decided that this is no longer acceptible.

 

In the history of mankind there has never been the amount of opportunity for work that there is today. I cannot belive people actually say there is no work, and nothing to do.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Nothing has been proven relevant to the argument. Nothing at all.

 

And you are missing the point talking about jobs available. It's the type of work that's the issue.

[spook]

Nothing has been proven relevant to the argument. Nothing at all.

 

And you are missing the point talking about jobs available. It's the type of work that's the issue.

 

If anyone wants to have their lives paid for by the community as a whole then those same people should do whatever the copmmunity asks of them.

 

Cleaning toilets, rotine work that is being left undone because it would cost too much to pay a man just to do it, even whitewashing coal type jobs, it doesn't matter. The principle should be no work - no food.

 

Why should I and others pay you to do nothing just because you don't like what you're being asked to do?

 

You're a joke.

[Terse]

 

You're a joke.

 

Maybe... but you're MUCH, MUCH funnier!

[jimbms]

Nothing has been proven relevant to the argument. Nothing at all.

 

And you are missing the point talking about jobs available. It's the type of work that's the issue.

In that case it evens out, for those who wont work it is the type of benifits that's the issue, if they try they get a decent one if not they don't, can't say fairer than that it works both ways sunshine.

[Mazza]

As someone who has worked since 13 (part time jobs until I left uni then straight into fulltime work) I find it offensive that someone who has never paid anything into the state should get benefits (Also I don't believe in child benefit, vouchers for food/nappies for those who need them would be more effective, ours will go straight into a savings account to pay for uni if child wants to go that way when time comes). JSA should be used only to help you for a limitied period of time and if you turn down 3 jobs then you lose it, seems fair to me.

I'm now on maternity leave - getting maternity benefit from the govt but given as I've paid into the system for 20 + years then I believe I'm entitled to it. I am not entitled to anything else even though I've lost my wage whilst not working I'm not complaining, yes it would be nice to get some more money from the govt, but my NI has paid for the hosp where I gave birth, and where my child is currently being looked after. At least I know I've paid my tiny part in that. It will be a struggle until I go back to work for us as a family but the hubby will work extra hours as we've both been brought up with a 'work ethic', where you don't get anything for nothing.

[Addie]

Maternity Leave.

 

Now that's another potentially contentious issue...

[Matt Bawden]

Maternity Leave.

 

Now that's another potentially contentious issue...

 

No it isn't and it never should be.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If anyone wants to have their lives paid for by the community as a whole then those same people should do whatever the copmmunity asks of them. Cleaning toilets, rotine work that is being left undone because it would cost too much to pay a man just to do it, even whitewashing coal type jobs, it doesn't matter. The principle should be no work - no food.

That doesn't make sense. If the thing the community MAKES them do is work then that ends the whole matter of them being paid by the community. Either they do paid work or they don't. I certainly do not think that people should starve for not undertaking into waged work.

 

Why should I and others pay you to do nothing just because you don't like what you're being asked to do?

It isn't just what they don't want to do, it is also what you turn them into by forcing the issue and placing them in work.