Conservatives Forcing People To Work

[La_Dolce_Vita]

They have a point, but as regards working in the community as a return for community putting food in their mouths and clothes on their backs, why not?

No, they don't. These people KNOW how to work. It isn't as if they need to LEARN to work. And this isn't about learning skills.

What is WRONG with requiring people to work for what they get and if it has to be work that we can’t afford to pay a wage for then why not get it done simply as a quid pro quo for the unemployed to get welfare hand outs? I would even go so far as getting them to whitewash coal on principle of working for what you get.

But that doesn't make sense. If work is done quid pro quo for money then it is just the same as waged work. And I think there is something wrong in stripping people of their freedoms.

You don’t EARN anything on the dole, you get a hand out.

Agreed

To do some community work in return for that hand out is right and proper.

And I would absolutely agree with you, if it is done freely. By all means education, find ways to help establish talents, and then try and help those who need it find community work to do. Great idea!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I have my own understanding based on how valueless work in itself is. But what I do find very amusing about this and the whole debate surrounding work is that people genuinely believe that work IN ITSELF is good, instills pride, and is dignified. I think such people are hoplessly deluded but maybe they need that idea for extremely dull and valueless work. Nevertheless, why do such people think that many do not work to share in this pride and dignity? It's on offer to anyone, even to those with no skills. People should be lining up to get a job.

[Evil Goblin]

I have my own understanding based on how valueless work in itself is. But what I do find very amusing about this and the whole debate surrounding work is that people genuinely believe that work IN ITSELF is good, instills pride, and is dignified. I think such people are hoplessly deluded but maybe they need that idea for extremely dull and valueless work. Nevertheless, why do such people think that many do not work to share in this pride and dignity? It's on offer to anyone, even to those with no skills. People should be lining up to get a job.

LDV - humans are goal-driven animals. Without purpose human life is unsatisfying and, to most, intolerable. Work, of whatever nature, provides a goal (or set of goals) which can give meaning to peoples' lives and in the process enables human needs and wants to be satisfied. Thus work, IN ITSELF, is a good thing for humans - whether it instills pride is another matter - whether it is dignified or not is a matter of subjective opinion (after all, what does dignified mean?).

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV - humans are goal-driven animals. Without purpose human life is unsatisfying and, to most, intolerable.

I wouldn't quite agree that we are goal driven. I believe that we try and give meaning to our lives and I agree that people do this being productive (and there are many ways in which they can be. Many people do not seek to give their lives meaning and do not do anything productive. It has to be asked why people bother living if that's the case.

 

Work, of whatever nature, provides a goal (or set of goals) which can give meaning to peoples' lives and in the process enables human needs and wants to be satisfied.Thus work, IN ITSELF, is a good thing for humans - whether it instills pride is another matter - whether it is dignified or not is a matter of subjective opinion (after all, what does dignified mean?).

I very much disagree here because you're isolating the matter of someone finding purpose from the other factors that make up. The extent of effort required to undertake the work; the goal/purpose of the work itself; the ability to do the work well; what that work makes them, i.e. what that meaning is; the conditions in which work is undertaken and the form of work itself.

 

When these factors are used to assess a form of work the result is often very far from good. Yes, I can agree that pride is a personal feeling about work and dignity is a subjective opinion, but these feelings and perspectives surrounding those who do work are treated as if they are instrinsic to doing work and not subjective.

[Evil Goblin]

LDV - I think you would enjoy Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money" (Century Books - ISBN 0712683992). In this he paints a number of possible scenarios for the future organisation of society and the economy. Some of his ideas will, I am sure, things ypu will find appealing. Also has a section on the mechanics of fiat currencies which is very useful (Lietaer was/is a currency expert now in academia).

[Stevie Boy]

In other words you refuse to answer the questions because it does not suit you or is the truth...

Because nobody else requires others to explain their familial, education, and employment background to ascertain if something someone says is true. It's not relevant.

 

Got fed up reading all this, but I do think it is relevant as to whether you are employed or not.

 

If you are un-employed then you are just moaning due to the fact that you might have to get off your arse and do a bit.

[BigDave]

The differences with the Tories is that they exactly argue that the people concerned do not know HOW to work and therefore need to pick up littler or do gardening all day.

The main difference is that under Labour's current Flexible New Deal, Jobcentre Plus farms the unemployed out to private companies, still without pay as work experience for them to profit from. Tory plans seem to indicate some sort of community work instead.

[jimbms]

I am sure you have used to word 'decent' before. What does the word mean when you recent to the 'decent section'? Are the unemployed indecent?

English???

I doubt it. Besides I want an explanation from Jimbm what he means by it.

What you want and what you get are not always the same, as you say I refer to previous answers so I need not restate them again but l

will say that if you assume the only opposite of decent is indecent you really are thick

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Both are appalling. But at least the Flexible New Deal pretends to do what it says on the tin by giving people propert work experience with a greater likelihood of learning relevant skills after discerning what jobs someone could get. The Tory policy is far more confused and seems to mislead into thinking that some exerience is gained through it, although at least it is community work.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If you are un-employed then you are just moaning due to the fact that you might have to get off your arse and do a bit.

Which, as one example of possible scenarious or circumstances, is why I would not answer this or other questions. I shouldn't be expected to answer. And the outcome IF I was unemployed would be to have some idiot reading and saying "Ah, he is just moaning because he IS unemployed - ignore him then".

 

Jimbms -

What you want and what you get are not always the same, as you say I refer to previous answers so I need not restate them again but lwill say that if you assume the only opposite of decent is indecent you really are thick

I have never really thought about that, can you have more than one opposite of something. I thought it was a binary thing. Do explain more Jimbms. And stop being so evasiveness when

I ask you something reaonsable about something peculiar you have said.

[Stevie Boy]

If you are un-employed then you are just moaning due to the fact that you might have to get off your arse and do a bit.

Which, as one example of possible scenarious or circumstances, is why I would not answer this or other questions. I shouldn't be expected to answer. And the outcome IF I was unemployed would be to have some idiot reading and saying "Ah, he is just moaning because he IS unemployed - ignore him then"

 

 

Exactly, and due to the fact you won't answer adds no weight to your starting argument and henceforth should be ignored.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

It shouldn't add or detract in weight and I have explained why. It was to dispense with stupid lines of thinking like you are demonstrating.

[spook]

The boy has issues. Big ones.

[RC-Drift.com]

Both are appalling. But at least the Flexible New Deal pretends to do what it says on the tin by giving people propert work experience with a greater likelihood of learning relevant skills after discerning what jobs someone could get. The Tory policy is far more confused and seems to mislead into thinking that some exerience is gained through it, although at least it is community work.

Let's go back to the 'deal', we're talking about the long term scroungers here, when I am employed I have to work a week before getting paid. In my book these people have a heck of a lot of catching up to do!

[jimbms]

If you are un-employed then you are just moaning due to the fact that you might have to get off your arse and do a bit.

Which, as one example of possible scenarious or circumstances, is why I would not answer this or other questions. I shouldn't be expected to answer. And the outcome IF I was unemployed would be to have some idiot reading and saying "Ah, he is just moaning because he IS unemployed - ignore him then".

 

Jimbms -

What you want and what you get are not always the same, as you say I refer to previous answers so I need not restate them again but lwill say that if you assume the only opposite of decent is indecent you really are thick

I have never really thought about that, can you have more than one opposite of something. I thought it was a binary thing. Do explain more Jimbms. And stop being so evasiveness when

I ask you something reaonsable about something peculiar you have said.

Before you make comments on me not answering direct to your question I would recomend you first look to yourself for reasons