Conservatives Forcing People To Work

[RamseyMike]

I have an issue with using coercion to force people to do this rubbish.

 

No one is being forced to do it, they can do it or lose benefits that is a choice

Its just like having a real job, if you don't turn up you don't get paid

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Go on, allow yourself a minute to ponder on that one...I'll help you. Of course, I live in the real world, but it is not one that I think is decent, humane, and fair where people do sell themselves to do whatever mindless shit they can compete for and then have to that for most of the working day. That's the real world and it ought to change. While it remains, I can hardly shake my head at those who have rightly though "fuck this, I am not gonna feel like a twat doing mindless shit in a call centre, high street store, clerical office job, line manager in a finance company, factory worker, etc and taking orders"

 

No one is being forced to do it, they can do it or lose benefits that is a choice

Its just like having a real job, if you don't turn up you don't get paid

Really not a choice. Again, think about that one some more.

 

But it IS the easy answer. It's the easy answer for a society that can't accept the real reasons why people are out of work and vilifies them by ridiculously pretending they are lazy and then runs a comparison at their sorry lives where try desperately to paint their work as something it isn't.

[RamseyMike]

Its no different from the choice everyone makes when they get up to go to work in the morning and if millions can make the right choice for the best part of their lifes theres no reason a few people who are work shy can't do it for a month

[Monkey boy]

Do you think it's decent humane and fair that the rest of us who do work (whether we like it or not) are deducted large amounts of the money we've earned to keep people who can't be bothered to work? A job is what you make of it and there are millions of people who don't like their job and would give it up tommorow if they didn't need the money.

If loosing their benfit isn't really a choice then they will have to do it. If you can't be bothered to eat you will die. I suppose you think that's cruel as well? I really cannot see your point.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Its no different from the choice everyone makes when they get up to go to work in the morning and if millions can make the right choice for the best part of their lifes theres no reason a few people who are work shy can't do it for a month

There's no right choice about it. You are no more right for going to work. And these people are not work shy. They simply have no good reason to do the same sort of work that you probably do.

 

Do you think it's decent humane and fair that the rest of us who do work (whether we like it or not) are deducted large amounts of the money we've earned to keep people who can't be bothered to work?

It is wrong and it is unfair. But we condone the world of work that exists and are happy to let it remain it ownership and control of private hands, so we have no role in making it better and more enjoyable and non-demeaning.

But by forcing people into work you are using coercion to make them doing something that is absolutely understandable and would be are same choices if wanted less money and had a less propagandised vision of what work is.

 

If loosing their benfit isn't really a choice then they will have to do it. If you can't be bothered to eat you will die. I suppose you think that's cruel as well? I really cannot see your point.

That's right. They are being forced to work and that's why I disagree with it.

[manshimajin]

This is clearly a topic one writes about wearing a helmet. LDV I would comment on two things but at the end of the day you think it is a bad idea and i think it is a reasonable one given that unemployment is not going to disappear:

 

When I lived in Japan it was fascinating to see how local councils 'created' jobs for people (usually older males because of the low unemployment rate) that took them into the community. Not only did they get a sense of pride from this, they were in contact with people throughout the day not sitting a home or the public library moping. The scheme also created spin off jobs as the workers were supplied with the tools and clothing of the job they were doing. I did hear a lot of Americans making similar comments to the ones you are making - that it was not the right form of capitalism to require people to work.

 

I have a nephew who lives in a very high unemployment area of the UK. He has tried with his parents' support to find jobs. Every week he puts in a pile of applications. But every time he is told that he 'has no experience of work'. So now he is working for a charity shop which may not be the greatest job anyone has ever had but his whole attitude, self respect, social skills and interest are much better than it was when he was just stuck at home. He doesn't get paid a seperate wage - he works to earn his Jobseekers Allownace and is pleased to be able to be doing so.

 

I don't think anyone has the right to deny him this opportunity - it may not be the best but it is something.

[RamseyMike]

ldv do you work, if so could you afford to give your job up tomorrow or are you forced to stay there to pay the bills?

[fatshaft]

There's no right choice about it. You are no more right for going to work. And these people are not work shy. They simply have no good reason to do the same sort of work that you probably do.

 

[Matt Bawden]

Ok then LDV, what about this one then. Everyone who is employed gets a reduction in the amount they pay for their National Insurance contributions and the government changes the wefare system so that those who ARE work shy, benefits cheats, scroungers etc., etc., don't get a penny of support including housing benefit and they don't have to do any menial work experience job, with this they don't recieve free health care. Would this be an acceptable alternative, because financial crisis or not working people are getting a bit cheesed off with keeping the lazy supplied with fags, cheap booze and lottery tickets and scratchcards.

 

My Mother and Father divorced when I was a lad and i spent a few years with my Mother and her second husband, he was an artist and had utter contempt for the working people saying they were morons because they were prepared to work, it was these so called morons who bought his artwork and paid for his benefits alongside his artwork pay, luckily I took my Father's influence of working for what you want.

 

You remind me of my Mother's second husband, he is now a broken man who lives alone with a chronic alcohol problem, good luck to you fella!

[Max Power]

In the UK and here to a degree, there is part of a generation who have never known proper work. It is not by choice, just that they have been unable to find employment after school, grown older and never had any work experience. After a few years the desire to find employment dimnishes as no daily routine has been created and the spiral goes downwards. These people become almost unemployable and their life is set in its mould.

 

Giving people benefits is all very fine and the human thing to do, I'm not sure that it's the kind thing to do though, as it condemns them to an unfulfilled life! They can never better themselves, do the things that most of us do and generally end up on the scrap heap.

 

Any scheme that can help to kick start a job for people is to be welcomed, I'm not so sure that a months work experience is going to be much help but at least it's a start of sorts.

[Silentbob]

As usual LDV you crawl out from under a rock protecting your own kind. Workshy gobby little shits who drain the coffers and claim "all property is theft" and such shite.

 

This country has got used to getting something for nothing, the <dontwannabe>employed are the bottom of the ladder; 25 year old 'students' just above that.

 

I signed on once when I was 19, and felt so fecking ashamed I promised I would never lower myself again.

 

I have worked for nothing before doing 'menial' jobs, it is called charity; and to be honest it was uplifting not demeaning.

 

Good on them for pushing this workshy lot into a corner.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

This is clearly a topic one writes about wearing a helmet. LDV I would comment on two things but at the end of the day you think it is a bad idea and i think it is a reasonable one given that unemployment is not going to disappear...

 

...I don't think anyone has the right to deny him this opportunity - it may not be the best but it is something.

I have deleted the rest so that I don't quote massive chunks but I take into account what you have said. And I would agree. I think for those who want work there should be efforts to try and make it easy for people to compete in the market and stand a better chance and not be left unemployable because of economic conditions or their specific circumstances. I welcome that.

 

Whereas I most certainly oppose the idea of forcing people into work who don't want to. That's what the issue is here. And it isn't a benevolent scheme. I mean really, giving people the job of picking up litter? That's really going to offer some experience and instill what society calls a work ethnic. I think not!

 

Matt Bawden

Ok then LDV, what about this one then. Everyone who is employed gets a reduction in the amount they pay for their National Insurance contributions and the government changes the wefare system so that those who ARE work shy, benefits cheats, scroungers etc., etc., don't get a penny of support including housing benefit and they don't have to do any menial work experience job, with this they don't recieve free health care. Would this be an acceptable alternative,

Sorry you have lost me. Why would I want welfare removed?

 

My Mother and Father divorced when I was a lad and i spent a few years with my Mother and her second husband, he was an artist and had utter contempt for the working people saying they were morons because they were prepared to work, it was these so called morons who bought his artwork and paid for his benefits alongside his artwork pay, luckily I took my Father's influence of working for what you want.

You remind me of my Mother's second husband, he is now a broken man who lives alone with a chronic alcohol problem, good luck to you fella!

How does your Mother's second husband's unemployment and outlook compare to mine? I don't have contempty for those who work. It's true that I admire what they do - for being able to do such work and dislike what they become from doing it, but I don't think they are morons. Just that they are made to act like morons.

[pongo]

You will not win this argument LDV. Not because of the rights or wrongs of any policy but because this is about our leaders setting the slaves against each other.

 

This is about saying things to distract and slightly please people who are basically not very happy. This sort of meaningless nonsense is designed to appeal to people who are basically cross and lost. It is the political equivalent of kicking a dog. The policy (which will probably go nowhere) has nothing to do with making anything better. It is a diversion, a way of distracting people from the actual issues. If your life is borderline a bit shit (like the people who this sort of stuff pleases) - then having someone else to get cross about , and then seeing something done to them, probably makes you feel slightly better.

 

They set out the assumption that there are 1000s of people out there who are somehow getting away with scrounging. Then they say that they will do something about it. But there is really no evidence that this is a significant issue or that making people do stuff will somehow address any of the actual issues or problems with society or the economy.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

In the UK and here to a degree, there is part of a generation who have never known proper work. It is not by choice, just that they have been unable to find employment after school, grown older and never had any work experience. After a few years the desire to find employment dimnishes as no daily routine has been created and the spiral goes downwards. These people become almost unemployable and their life is set in its mould

I agree. That is the case for many. And is disgusting that people are either sucked into the world of demeaning waged work or they end up having to depend on little money to get by and don't live productive lives.

But here we are talking about a coercive scheme to force those who have recognise how awful the jobs they can get will be and would rather not enter into any such regime. These are not jobseekers

 

Giving people benefits is all very fine and the human thing to do, I'm not sure that it's the kind thing to do though, as it condemns them to an unfulfilled life! They can never better themselves, do the things that most of us do and generally end up on the scrap heap.

It's only human thing that can be done if people cannot get a job or will not work (unless we want them to die).

 

Can you be more precise about what you mean by 'bettering oneself'? Are you talking about making yourself more marketable? Or earning more cash?

 

Any scheme that can help to kick start a job for people is to be welcomed, I'm not so sure that a months work experience is going to be much help but at least it's a start of sorts.

It's a pile of shit. It's menial work that people are being coerced into doing. It is wrong to force people into this. Nothing is going to be learned. It's not going to make people more employable and it's not going to make people want to work.

 

This is a scheme that is only being used by the Tories to get numbskull in the electorate to favour the Tories. It's too narrow a scheme to work. It's isn't anywhere as comprehensive and orientated as motivating people as Labour's schemes in the 1990s.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I signed on once when I was 19, and felt so fecking ashamed I promised I would never lower myself again.

You're doing it now! Eurgh! One thing I would say is that I agree that unemployment has a stigma. But that's because we're all so fucking stupid and actually believe that work, ANY work is good, sort of good for the soul and necessary to fulfill out childish need to exclaim to others that we are hard workers. It completely ignores the issue of the quality and nature of the work itself.

Someone could be filing paper around all day from 8 till 6 and society applauds that effort, yet it is substance of the act that's important. It is so devoid of intellectual input and intelligence. Just stupid work. It should be admired how someone can stay awake or keep doing it, but not something to be proud about.

 

I have worked for nothing before doing 'menial' jobs, it is called charity; and to be honest it was uplifting not demeaning.

I can absolutely agree and it is uplifting no doubt because it is productive and meaningful to you. You do the work and there is a direct benefit to others that you can recognise. It isn't directly done so that someone can make profits; it isn't forced work; and you've done something good.