Conservatives Forcing People To Work

[Matt Bawden]

You will not win this argument LDV. Not because of the rights or wrongs of any policy but because this is about our leaders setting the slaves against each other.

 

This is about saying things to distract and slightly please people who are basically not very happy. This sort of meaningless nonsense is designed to appeal to people who are basically cross and lost. It is the political equivalent of kicking a dog. The policy (which will probably go nowhere) has nothing to do with making anything better. It is a diversion, a way of distracting people from the actual issues. If your life is borderline a bit shit (like the people who this sort of stuff pleases) - then having someone else to get cross about , and then seeing something done to them, probably makes you feel slightly better.

 

They set out the assumption that there are 1000s of people out there who are somehow getting away with scrounging. Then they say that they will do something about it. But there is really no evidence that this is a significant issue or that making people do stuff will somehow address any of the actual issues or problems with society or the economy.

 

 

This post I can see merit in, I understand completely where you are coming from and can actually see that I had become a tad narrow minded in my previous post, unlike LDV your point comes across in a more calm and respectful manner. I'm afraid that LDV lives in a utopian ideal that doesn't exist outside his bubble and never will and I would have respect for his points if he actually did something about his "beliefs" other than whine about them on this forum.

 

Having said that, you openly criticise what the UK government propose whilst offering no alternative and for the most part that's what LDV does, may I ask what you would propose as a way of dealing with the issue raised?

[Matt Bawden]

LDV we all work to make money to buy things, things we don't need or particularly want but we are indoctrined to buy, that is the way society is, to work and "better" ourselves, live beyond our financial means, to try to out do each other, become slaves to the wage, be slaves to debt and to be controlled by bthe authorities and to live in fear, to be constantly under pressure to not fail, to not be rejected by our peers by thinking and acting outside the constraints of our social circles, yah da yah da yah da.......what's the solution then, cos I'm all ears ?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

This post I can see merit in, I understand completely where you are coming from and can actually see that I had become a tad narrow minded in my previous post, unlike LDV your point comes across in a more calm and respectful manner. I'm afraid that LDV lives in a utopian ideal that doesn't exist outside his bubble and never will and I would have respect for his points if he actually did something about his "beliefs" other than whine about them on this forum.

 

Having said that, you openly criticise what the UK government propose whilst offering no alternative and for the most part that's what LDV does, may I ask what you would propose as a way of dealing with the issue raised?

Wait a sec, Pongo has made a good post but what he has done is to addess why the policy has been brought in. I have been criticising the policy because of what it is and those who think that it is all fine and dandy.

And although I may need to be calm, I have absolutely no reason to be disrespectful to those who do not deserve it for their despicable views.

I don't LIVE in an utopian ideal. I have think society can be a great deal better than it is now.

 

And why do you single out me for whining about things? What about all the others who endlessly whine about the minutiae of Tynwald politics and yet do nothing about it. I intend to get involved in direct action, but not on the Isle of Man. You have to start somewhere sensible (and less conservative).

 

I certainly think limitations should be placed on the amount of benefits that people can have, regardless of the number of kids they have. That's completely fine with me. But I am quite happy for those who don't want to work to be paid by the State if they are clever enough to get signed off as depressed or something like that.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV we all work to make money to buy things, things we don't need or particularly want but we are indoctrined to buy, that is the way society is, to work and "better" ourselves, live beyond our financial means, to try to out do each other, become slaves to the wage, be slaves to debt and to be controlled by bthe authorities and to live in fear, to be constantly under pressure to not fail, to not be rejected by our peers by thinking and acting outside the constraints of our social circles, yah da yah da yah da.......what's the solution then, cos I'm all ears ?

You think there is a simple solution? Ideally people should be looking for ways to overhaul capitalism and I am not convinced how best that can be achieved. Not that happy about a Vanguard party temporarily taking control but I think it would likely hold on to power. Would rather an anarchist approach, but this needs more thought and insight. Either way, people need to be educated to challenge the propaganda they are fed so they can begin to start critically assessing their world. From there who knows.

[Lost Login]

My main issue with this is what and where is all this work that these people are going to do. Are they going to do work which would otherwise have gone to somebody in paid employment. Sorry you can not have a job as a bin man, road sweeper, working on the roads anymore as all those jobs are being done by those being forced to do their four weeks work.

 

If voluntary organisations can apply for people to join them to work to work on a voluntary basis then it might work. I know in the UK in the past some of the preserved railways had week long working parties from young offenders institutions, before they got stopped by the Government. The voluntary organisation got some assistance. The young offenders enjoyed the work and being away from the monotony of being locked up but the biggest feed back was generally that the young offenders took alot from being trusted in the work, te results of the work and being treated like a normal member of the public.

 

I would exempt people from the Scheme those who on their own initiative already do voluntary work.

[Fulltide]

LDV we all work to make money to buy things, things we don't need or particularly want but we are indoctrined to buy, that is the way society is, to work and "better" ourselves, live beyond our financial means, to try to out do each other, become slaves to the wage, be slaves to debt and to be controlled by bthe authorities and to live in fear, to be constantly under pressure to not fail, to not be rejected by our peers by thinking and acting outside the constraints of our social circles, yah da yah da yah da.......what's the solution then, cos I'm all ears ?

You think there is a simple solution? Ideally people should be looking for ways to overhaul capitalism and I am not convinced how best that can be achieved. Not that happy about a Vanguard party temporarily taking control but I think it would likely hold on to power. Would rather an anarchist approach, but this needs more thought and insight. Either way, people need to be educated to challenge the propaganda they are fed so they can begin to start critically assessing their world. From there who knows.

 

How high is your propaganda now son.

 

Cheers

[lazybones]

its a shame if your a gardener when you can get a unemployed person to do it for nowt,any manuel job is under threat ,why not start a cotton mill make cotton cheaply or a steel factory or a car manufacturer or deliver everyones post cheaply or put phones in everyones homes or gas pipes or electric oh sorry thats what we had before thatcher well ....?

[pongo]

Having said that, you openly criticise what the UK government propose whilst offering no alternative and for the most part that's what LDV does, may I ask what you would propose as a way of dealing with the issue raised?

 

I propose not doing anything about the issue, if it even is much of an issue which I doubt. And if it is an issue then I propose doing nothing about it anyhow. I'm busy with other stuff and acutely aware that time is ticking away.

 

But if you want a solution to a probably non existent problem - well rather than getting them to pick up litter, how about appointing the unemployed to be non executive directors of banks or making them to serve on quangos and other public bodies. That might be fun.

[KMC]

But there is no clear connection between the work they are doing and a wage.

 

We work and we get paid, they don't work but still get paid benefits and a lot of them have done so for many years and you say there isn't a connection????

 

I think this is a great idea and should have been done years ago. Why should my NI and Tax be used by others who have no intention of making an honest living - And before anyone starts, I do mean those that are abusing the system and not those who find themselves out of work for whatever reason that is out of their control!!

 

Kev

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The young offenders enjoyed the work and being away from the monotony of being locked up but the biggest feed back was generally that the young offenders took alot from being trusted in the work, te results of the work and being treated like a normal member of the public.

I completely agree.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

We work and we get paid, they don't work but still get paid benefits and a lot of them have done so for many years and you say there isn't a connection????

They get paid benefits because they are not working.

 

The assumption or rather the lie is that this work experience is supposed to create a work ethic or a feeling of what work in the wider world is supposed to be like. But that's rubbish. Unpaid work doing crap like picking up litter for a month is not giving people experience. The type of drudgery is similar, but the reasons for doing it are not. In fact, those who are out of work are not fucking idiots. They know what is involved in doing work and why it is done. They have however come to the conclusion that they won't make the sacrifices needed to do it. There is nothing in it for them and they're right.

 

I think this is a great idea and should have been done years ago. Why should my NI and Tax be used by others who have no intention of making an honest living - And before anyone starts, I do mean those that are abusing the system and not those who find themselves out of work for whatever reason that is out of their control!!

Don't know what you mean by an honest living. Are people on benefits not honest?

Nobody denies that there is a problem here. It isn't right that people who work support others, but it is worse to force everyone into slavery.

 

Would you not be happier with a scheme to try and build people's skills and look for ways to find productive work for people based on their talents?

[pongo]

Nobody denies that there is a problem here.

 

I more or less do actually.

 

BTW - money wise it's something and nothing compared with how much went in bailing out the banks and all the jolly good chaps who did not have to pay back their millions in what turned out to be state funded bonuses. Not that I'm anti them either. And it is all happening again.

 

It's all the same.

[Gladys]

Anyone else feeling the load of bollocks here? Frankly, to have a workforce idle is shameful. More to the point, there has to be an awaken to the fact that the state is no longer able to cosset from cradle to grave. The rights and wrongs are a separate debate, but in the current situation, I have absolutely no qualms about people drawing from the state putting back.

.

[Fulltide]

Nobody denies that there is a problem here.

 

I more or less do actually.

 

BTW - money wise it's something and nothing compared with how much went in bailing out the banks and all the jolly good chaps who did not have to pay back their millions in what turned out to be state funded bonuses. Not that I'm anti them either. And it is all happening again.

 

It's all the same.

 

 

How is your bank account now son.

 

Cheers

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Anyone else feeling the load of bollocks here? Frankly, to have a workforce idle is shameful. More to the point, there has to be an awaken to the fact that the state is no longer able to cosset from cradle to grave. The rights and wrongs are a separate debate, but in the current situation, I have absolutely no qualms about people drawing from the state putting back.

.

Very surprised this is your outlook. You sound almost Thatcherite. Your use of the term Workforce to refer to all people is frankly startling as to how you view people. Do you see people's purpose in life is to work? And who should be ashamed?

 

The State may find it is struggling badly to cosset from cradly to grave, but the State and economic system are a system that have developed to render the current situation where people are desperate to escape from the sort of work on offer, where they don't have the means to discover and fulfill their talents. More pertinently, it is a situation that the State has created.

 

As Pongo said, assessments of the current situation have to considered in view of other actions by the State. The State paid out a massive amount in bailouts and has now left it to a largely clueless public to accept payment for the situation. It isn't good enough to just offer an argument based on how the economic difficulties of the government.