Conservatives Forcing People To Work

[manxy]

To be fair, all this is years too late. Steps like this should have been taken in the good times when jobs were plentiful. As it is, Britain is left with a great many people who don’t know how to work. They’ve never done any – they haven’t needed to. And that’s the point, surely? Now they will need to.

 

Oh really? So what are you going to do if an ex-soldier refuses to collect dogshit in his local park - let him starve or something?

You could argue that it's their personal choice?

[MilitantDogOwner]

To be fair, all this is years too late. Steps like this should have been taken in the good times when jobs were plentiful. As it is, Britain is left with a great many people who don’t know how to work. They’ve never done any – they haven’t needed to. And that’s the point, surely? Now they will need to.

 

Oh really? So what are you going to do if an ex-soldier refuses to collect dogshit in his local park - let him starve or something?

You could argue that it's their personal choice?

 

You'd think ex-soldiers would have a better work ethic.

[Max Power]

To be fair, all this is years too late. Steps like this should have been taken in the good times when jobs were plentiful. As it is, Britain is left with a great many people who don’t know how to work. They’ve never done any – they haven’t needed to. And that’s the point, surely? Now they will need to.

 

Oh really? So what are you going to do if an ex-soldier refuses to collect dogshit in his local park - let him starve or something?

 

Ill-thought out political Daily Wail bollocks.

You are so right P.K. this has been very poorly thought out and is just pandering to the Daily Mail brigade who make up the majority of the Tory vote. I would hate to see a soldier who has served his country, been retired out and caught up in the employment jungle having to prove his worth by picking up litter etc! I'm sure that any scroungers are known to their local authorities and it is they who should be dealt with properly in my opinion. Taking a general view is a cowardly way out and backing down from addressing the real problem. Who knows, they may not like what they find and genuine scroungers may not number as many as they like to think!

Unfortunately there is an additional problem of people who have never been able to find work, perhaps finding proper jobs for these people would be more productive than crackpot schemes which stigmatise the genuinely unfortunate!

 

As for people making a lifestyle choice of idleness expecting to be looked after by the state, what the hell is that all about? If you choose to be idle you should be herded into a camp and 'dealt with', perhaps you could be used for medical experiments or something useful. Don't fancy it? Well get out and try and support yourself, you are using up resources which should be being used to help the genuine unemployed and needy!

[Matt Bawden]

The thing is LDV we DO live in capitalist society not a socialist one, all models of socialism have failed, it's a lovely idea but the realities are that the pure form of a socialist society is unobtainable, we are already indoctinerated with the set morals and ideals from birth,greed is actively encouraged and altruism is rejected, albeit it is superficially encouraged but the deep under current is that we become disassociated with our community, selfish and only intent in improving our own set of circumstances, yes we pretend we are a caring society by bunging a fiver in a collection box for what ever charity is the zeitgeist but the truth is we ultimately couldn't really care less.

 

You can't de-invent the gun, and whilst I can see where you are coming from with the forced labour leading to what could eventually be totalitarianism surely you can see where some of the other posters views herald from with regard to being cheesed off with indirectly paying for those that refuse to work.

 

Now I'm one off the first to rebuke what the authorities try to tell me what is good for me or what I should do, from doctors to lawmakers and this whole thing makes me think of the Eloys and Morlocks but things aren't and won't change because even if people on the whole wanted it they would be too scared to let go of the consumerist within them and ultimately the vast majority are obedient and will take as gospel whatever is spewed out by the authorities and there are those that are acutely aware of the reality who would always be money orientated and motivated by greed.

 

Your theoretical society cannot work because people aren't the same and will never be the same until gentic engineering gets to the point that the ultimate human being has been created, at this point we have completely lost the human being albeit the physical form so the socialist society which has been created would be utterly futile and worthless.

 

If those that refused to work were intelligent enough to form an argument to not work then I might well be inclined to atleast appreciate where they are coming from, unfortunately the vast majority are well below the national average IQ and can jsut about utter words containing two syllables, put their dressing gown on and nip round the local shop for their lottery scratchcards which they hope will take them away from their miserable existences. If they are willing to work but not picking up dog crap or are unhappy with their circumstances why not travel looking for work or even just for the experience to see people in other countries who have feck all and don't have a welfare state and how honourable they are and how they adapt rather than sit on their arses whining about how frickin hard done by they are because they've only got a 40" plasma instead of a 50" or that the social aren't givingchristmas bonuses to this year.

 

 

I'd just like to add I do admire the fire burning within you but you do trip yourself up on numerous occasions, however I look forward to reading more of your posts on varying topics.

[Matt Bawden]

To be fair, all this is years too late. Steps like this should have been taken in the good times when jobs were plentiful. As it is, Britain is left with a great many people who don’t know how to work. They’ve never done any – they haven’t needed to. And that’s the point, surely? Now they will need to.

 

Oh really? So what are you going to do if an ex-soldier refuses to collect dogshit in his local park - let him starve or something?

 

Ill-thought out political Daily Wail bollocks.

You are so right P.K. this has been very poorly thought out and is just pandering to the Daily Mail brigade who make up the majority of the Tory vote. I would hate to see a soldier who has served his country, been retired out and caught up in the employment jungle having to prove his worth by picking up litter etc! I'm sure that any scroungers are known to their local authorities and it is they who should be dealt with properly in my opinion. Taking a general view is a cowardly way out and backing down from addressing the real problem. Who knows, they may not like what they find and genuine scroungers may not number as many as they like to think!

Unfortunately there is an additional problem of people who have never been able to find work, perhaps finding proper jobs for these people would be more productive than crackpot schemes which stigmatise the genuinely unfortunate!

 

As for people making a lifestyle choice of idleness expecting to be looked after by the state, what the hell is that all about? If you choose to be idle you should be herded into a camp and 'dealt with', perhaps you could be used for medical experiments or something useful. Don't fancy it? Well get out and try and support yourself, you are using up resources which should be being used to help the genuine unemployed and needy!

 

You sound very much like a tyrannical dictator

[Max Power]

You sound very much like a tyrannical dictator

I wish

[manxy]

The thing is LDV we DO live in capitalist society not a socialist one, all models of socialism have failed, it's a lovely idea but the realities are that the pure form of a socialist society is unobtainable, we are already indoctinerated with the set morals and ideals from birth,greed is actively encouraged and altruism is rejected, albeit it is superficially encouraged but the deep under current is that we become disassociated with our community, selfish and only intent in improving our own set of circumstances, yes we pretend we are a caring society by bunging a fiver in a collection box for what ever charity is the zeitgeist but the truth is we ultimately couldn't really care less.

 

You can't de-invent the gun, and whilst I can see where you are coming from with the forced labour leading to what could eventually be totalitarianism surely you can see where some of the other posters views herald from with regard to being cheesed off with indirectly paying for those that refuse to work.

 

Now I'm one off the first to rebuke what the authorities try to tell me what is good for me or what I should do, from doctors to lawmakers and this whole thing makes me think of the Eloys and Morlocks but things aren't and won't change because even if people on the whole wanted it they would be too scared to let go of the consumerist within them and ultimately the vast majority are obedient and will take as gospel whatever is spewed out by the authorities and there are those that are acutely aware of the reality who would always be money orientated and motivated by greed.

 

Your theoretical society cannot work because people aren't the same and will never be the same until gentic engineering gets to the point that the ultimate human being has been created, at this point we have completely lost the human being albeit the physical form so the socialist society which has been created would be utterly futile and worthless.

 

If those that refused to work were intelligent enough to form an argument to not work then I might well be inclined to atleast appreciate where they are coming from, unfortunately the vast majority are well below the national average IQ and can jsut about utter words containing two syllables, put their dressing gown on and nip round the local shop for their lottery scratchcards which they hope will take them away from their miserable existences. If they are willing to work but not picking up dog crap or are unhappy with their circumstances why not travel looking for work or even just for the experience to see people in other countries who have feck all and don't have a welfare state and how honourable they are and how they adapt rather than sit on their arses whining about how frickin hard done by they are because they've only got a 40" plasma instead of a 50" or that the social aren't givingchristmas bonuses to this year.

 

 

I'd just like to add I do admire the fire burning within you but you do trip yourself up on numerous occasions, however I look forward to reading more of your posts on varying topics.

OMG Matt, what have you done, you've given LDV mountains to think about and if he lets this one go by, I'd be gob-smacked.

 

Ok, bets on as to how many quotes will LDV use and pick out of Matt's viewpoint? I'm guessing a minimum of 5, but the wait is excruciating... lol

[RamseyMike]

To be fair, all this is years too late. Steps like this should have been taken in the good times when jobs were plentiful. As it is, Britain is left with a great many people who dont know how to work. Theyve never done any they havent needed to. And thats the point, surely? Now they will need to.

 

Oh really? So what are you going to do if an ex-soldier refuses to collect dogshit in his local park - let him starve or something?

 

Ill-thought out political Daily Wail bollocks.

 

By ex soldier do you mean someone who has had a job at some point, possibly in the armed forces , not the sort of person who's never worked in thier lifes that this course will be aimed at

[Matt Bawden]

OMG Matt, what have you done, you've given LDV mountains to think about and if he lets this one go by, I'd be gob-smacked.

 

Ok, bets on as to how many quotes will LDV use and pick out of Matt's viewpoint? I'm guessing a minimum of 5, but the wait is excruciating... lol

 

I think I may have inadvertently opened Pandora's Box, it should be entertaining though

[Chinahand]

Erm if people refuse to get themselves into a work routine all they will loose is job seeker's allowance.

 

The government provides various benefits and job seeker's allowance is meant to be only available to those seeking work.

 

If people don't want to undertake the necessary requirements to receive this benefit well that's their choice. They'll still get housing benefit, income support, tax credits etc etc, but they won't get job seeker's allowance. I don't think ex-soldiers or anyone else should get job seekers allowance if they aren't engaged in the world of work. Mental health allowance, income support etc, certainly, but not job seekers allowance.

 

I basically agree it is a gimmick, but there is an element of truth to the resentment of people getting up to work while the next door neighbour sleeps in with no intention of doing anything to contribute - those people do exist, and I don't think people who are keen to get on and retrain themselves etc will be affected at all.

 

I don't think Pongo's suggestion is so stupid ... if people are unemployed getting them involved with charities, quangos etc etc is a way of keeping them motivated and skilled. Charities and communities can and do get involved helping the unemployed - those elements of the "Big Society" which Cameron keeps going on about are weaker than they should be and I hope they expand as the state contracts.

 

The state bureaucratizes support and too often that means a loss of the human touch, voluntary work can be better at providing it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would very much hope that no one will be getting a ‘good kicking’, but what I would hope is that the idlers occupationally naive will be getting an introduction/education into the world of work...

But that's not what this scheme is. I am completely in favour of initiatives for those who want to learn USEFUL skills of their own free will. But you're being fooled if you think this is what is supposed to be coming.

 

It’s not going to be easy for them. They’ll have to learn how to take direction; be reliable and be self disciplined. It’s hard to imagine what it must be like to have to do a full weeks work when you have never had to make any efforts whatsoever, for years.

This is comedic thing about this scheme. There is no need to TEACH people how to just do work. I mean, do you remember any serious difficulties that you had when you got your first job? I remember my first job and it was a case of simply knowing what tasks I needed to do and doing them over a set period of time. Quite a different thing to teach specific skills, however. The problem is one of motivation, not some inability to be a worker.

 

There's only so much money in the pot.

You really are greatly overestimating the problem. Pushing those who choose not to work into work will make a significant difference.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The thing is LDV we DO live in capitalist society not a socialist one, all models of socialism have failed, it's a lovely idea but the realities are that the pure form of a socialist society is unobtainable

No, we don't live in a capitalist society. You can call it a mixed economy if you like, but it is a system where capitalist and socialist practices and policies are conducted. Just consider the role of government in the UK and Isle of Man - welfare, state intervention in the economy, purchasing of the banks, publicly owned companies, etc.

If we were talking about a truly capitalist society there would be only a small government with no other role but to enforce property rights.

But a socialist society (if you mean a government directing the economy) IS a terrible thing. Why do you think I am a socialist?

 

we are already indoctinerated with the set morals and ideals from birth,greed is actively encouraged and altruism is rejected, albeit it is superficially encouraged but the deep under current is that we become disassociated with our community, selfish and only intent in improving our own set of circumstances, yes we pretend we are a caring society by bunging a fiver in a collection box for what ever charity is the zeitgeist but the truth is we ultimately couldn't really care less.

I agree

 

You can't de-invent the gun, and whilst I can see where you are coming from with the forced labour leading to what could eventually be totalitarianism surely you can see where some of the other posters views herald from with regard to being cheesed off with indirectly paying for those that refuse to work.

I understand why they are cheesed off and they are right to be. But the unemployed aren't to blame for the problem.

 

Your theoretical society cannot work because people aren't the same and will never be the same until gentic engineering gets to the point that the ultimate human being has been created, at this point we have completely lost the human being albeit the physical form so the socialist society which has been created would be utterly futile and worthless.

Again, where do you get this idea from?

 

If those that refused to work were intelligent enough to form an argument to not work then I might well be inclined to atleast appreciate where they are coming from unfortunately the vast majority are well below the national average IQ and can jsut about utter words containing two syllables, put their dressing gown on and nip round the local shop for their lottery scratchcards which they hope will take them away from their miserable existences.

I think you have already grasped why you don't get an intelligent argument, so are quite willing to take the arguments of the supposedly better informed or (more precisely) the vocal majority?

 

If they are willing to work but not picking up dog crap or are unhappy with their circumstances why not travel looking for work or even just for the experience to see people in other countries who have feck all and don't have a welfare state and how honourable they are and how they adapt rather than sit on their arses whining about how frickin hard done by they are because they've only got a 40" plasma instead of a 50" or that the social aren't givingchristmas bonuses to this year.

It's not specific tasks that people are turning their nose up to exactly, but waged work available, i.e. 9-5, minimum wage, soul-sucking stuff. You can't ask them to look at the situation in other countries, as in THIS society they don't have much and don't have far to go with it.

[Matt Bawden]

The thing is LDV we DO live in capitalist society not a socialist one, all models of socialism have failed, it's a lovely idea but the realities are that the pure form of a socialist society is unobtainable, we are already indoctinerated with the set morals and ideals from birth,greed is actively encouraged and altruism is rejected, albeit it is superficially encouraged but the deep under current is that we become disassociated with our community, selfish and only intent in improving our own set of circumstances, yes we pretend we are a caring society by bunging a fiver in a collection box for what ever charity is the zeitgeist but the truth is we ultimately couldn't really care less.

 

You can't de-invent the gun, and whilst I can see where you are coming from with the forced labour leading to what could eventually be totalitarianism surely you can see where some of the other posters views herald from with regard to being cheesed off with indirectly paying for those that refuse to work.

 

Now I'm one off the first to rebuke what the authorities try to tell me what is good for me or what I should do, from doctors to lawmakers and this whole thing makes me think of the Eloys and Morlocks but things aren't and won't change because even if people on the whole wanted it they would be too scared to let go of the consumerist within them and ultimately the vast majority are obedient and will take as gospel whatever is spewed out by the authorities and there are those that are acutely aware of the reality who would always be money orientated and motivated by greed.

 

Your theoretical society cannot work because people aren't the same and will never be the same until gentic engineering gets to the point that the ultimate human being has been created, at this point we have completely lost the human being albeit the physical form so the socialist society which has been created would be utterly futile and worthless.

 

If those that refused to work were intelligent enough to form an argument to not work then I might well be inclined to atleast appreciate where they are coming from, unfortunately the vast majority are well below the national average IQ and can jsut about utter words containing two syllables, put their dressing gown on and nip round the local shop for their lottery scratchcards which they hope will take them away from their miserable existences. If they are willing to work but not picking up dog crap or are unhappy with their circumstances why not travel looking for work or even just for the experience to see people in other countries who have feck all and don't have a welfare state and how honourable they are and how they adapt rather than sit on their arses whining about how frickin hard done by they are because they've only got a 40" plasma instead of a 50" or that the social aren't givingchristmas bonuses to this year.

 

 

I'd just like to add I do admire the fire burning within you but you do trip yourself up on numerous occasions, however I look forward to reading more of your posts on varying topics.

OMG Matt, what have you done, you've given LDV mountains to think about and if he lets this one go by, I'd be gob-smacked.

 

Ok, bets on as to how many quotes will LDV use and pick out of Matt's viewpoint? I'm guessing a minimum of 5, but the wait is excruciating... lol

 

Very close, he used six quotes lol

[Matt Bawden]

Just a couple of questions if you don't mind LDV:

 

Do you oen your own home?

Are you currently employed?

Do you own many possessions?

Who in your mind either currently or historically do you see as being the most prolific leader?

Are you qualified for any career/job?

Do you have children?

[Terse]

Just a couple of questions if you don't mind LDV:

 

Do you have children?