Student Fees Protest

[jimbms]

Where's 'local' in this statement? Maybe we want to send kids to university so those jobs that require degrees can be filled with local people as well, instead of relying on those from other countries. Where is it you're from again?

 

It matters not where I am from as I am not of an age where this would matter to where I work unless of course you are biggoted, by local I meant that we have to rely on getting tradesmen from other nations to fill craftsmans jobs the same as doctors etc yet we for out for people to go on degrees and not return, nor do we invest in apprenticeships, now tell me how many vacancies in travel management need filling by the 47 that gained a degree in it in the last 3 yrs or 31 media studies, 14 in furnature design, 7 in mythology etc etc yet how many got degrees in medicine or pharmacy, denstisry or animal medicine, how about engineering, I bet you can guess by the number that have not filled the vacancies we have, degrees are fine if you have a use for people with them but when we need plumbers, electricians and joiners a bunch of degree qualified travel agents are about as useful as LDV in a labouring job.

[VinnieK]

It matters not where I am from as I am not of an age where this would matter to where I work unless of course you are biggoted

 

Well, it kind of does. If you're going to merrily canter down the 'local jobs for local people' route, using the spectre of others taking jobs that should be filled with locals as a rod to beat the back of higher education, then at the very least I'd hope you'd appreciate the irony in your doing so.

 

now tell me how many vacancies in travel management need filling by the 47 that gained a degree in it in the last 3 yrs or 31 media studies, 14 in furnature design, 7 in mythology etc etc

 

Where are you getting these figures? I can't even find a full degree course in travel management online, never mind furniture design (foundation and postgraduate qualifications yes, but not a degree).

 

For all the foaming at the mouth people do about media studies, I'm surprised to see that the number of students who've done a degree in it is so very low... that's what, 2% of students supported by the Government at any given time?

[jimbms]

Are you sure you are not related to LDV, what I said was that there are very few local people qualified to fill vacancies for trades men and thus they have to be filled by ones from another country not local jobs for locals only and we should train people here ion theses skills, have experience a good few years of local biggots not to go the jobs for locals only route minde you you wouldn't see that being manx would you. As for the courses try looking harder. anything further I suggest you ask your good buddy LDV as I am not interested in debating point less pedantic questions

[VinnieK]

I am not interested in debating point less pedantic questions

 

What are you talking about? These figures you're coming out with are central to your whole argument about too many people doing 'useless' qualifications!

 

If you really have got specific figures on Manx graduates for each subject, as your previous post suggests, then out with them.

[jimbms]

I feel no need to as I have already stated my point to a degree I am happy with and that is all that matters to me, you don't count in my eyes.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Then who does? Is it me?

[VinnieK]

I feel no need to as I have already stated my point to a degree I am happy with and that is all that matters to me, .

 

So you come out with a bunch of figures, only you're apparently incapable of or unwilling to back them up... and that's the level of argument you're happy with: a wee bit of hysteria hysteria with nothing to justify it*? If you've got reliable figures on what Manx students are studying you should share the source, since this is a debate that is always vexed by the sheer lack of information available.

 

you don't count...

 

There there, dry your eyes muffin. I wasn't being "biggoted"; it was a bit of mischief pointing out the irony in someone who's come to the Island to work and settle lamenting that there are a number of jobs on the Island filled with non-locals because there aren't enough locals aren't qualified for them - nothing more.

 

*I'm beginning to notice something of a pattern developing here with regards to your views on higher education: you come out with some grand claim, and if it's contradicted or even questioned in any way you just flounce off in a sulk, despite there (apparently) being some super awsome piece of evidence that would totally back up your claims.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I was listening to that tripe on Talking Heads about the violence being used, with Stu Peter's (and some lady called Carol) comments.

 

It most certainly isn't an honour or a privilege to go to university. Education should be free. Everyone should have the ability to obtain an education. And this is especially the case in a society where almost everyone's lives (are unfortunately) dominated and centre upon work and by earning a wage that can only be maximised by having an education. I am happy to pay towards others going to university to help cover the costs so all can make use of the current manner in which many of these skills are acquired. But to classify such things as an honour is to seriously misunderstand one of primary purposes of education in our current society or to be somewhat clueless as to why such things are paid for. It isn't a gift that people should be grateful for but a consequence to the fact that our society creates wealth inequality that renders many unable to afford it.

The working class person who has to invest in their future will be in a very situation to those who can much better afford the fees. A far worse situation considering how much they alone will be saddled with and have to pay off. And it is surely something very dissuasive to those less priveleged by wealth to bother going to university.

 

 

Also, I really think it deserves questioning why as soon as something becomes simply violent (and I am not necessarily talking about violence against other people where the reaction is absolutely understandable and quite correct) there is a childish reaction of immediately withdrawing support or criticising. I presume that it rests partly on the sanctity of property and a indoctrinised understanding that violence is absolutely immoral, except when conducted by the State. I wonder if it has something to do with a fear that some citizens have of a loss of control over other people.

 

In any case, other than the foolish and dangerous fire extinguisher thing, what was exact expression of violence on that day? My understanding was that it did not amount to a great deal and was primarily the smashing of windows of the offices in Millbank. And these were the offices of those who are making a decision that will have profound on these students lives and which they have little power to change.

 

Sure riots can get out of hand and become dangerous to other people. But this wasn't a riot characterised by a chaotic expression of anger.

 

The calm and collected students as portrayed by the media didn't become irrational by seeing others become violent. It SEEMS common sense that violent action allowed them to express their anger in a more effective and more understandable way at objects that symbolise the thing that has jeopardised their future by seeing others make such moves.

 

But on the radio, the most ridiculous comment was by some total bonehead who would like to have a Manx students fees taken from her because she is a Manx student and not a UK one so should not have been there.

It's called solidarity for those of the same class and social position.

 

I think it all shows just how appallingly limited people's politics are by the implicit assumption that all political conduct has to be constitutional but also demonstrative of how utterly selfish people are.

[VinnieK]

It most certainly isn't an honour or a privilege to go to university. Everyone should have the ability to obtain an education.

 

I agree that it should not be treated as an honour or a privilege, but nor should there be a sense of entitlement there. I'm not arguing for students to indulge in deferential gratitude for their ability to study at university, but they should at least acknowledge that they enjoy an opportunity that (despite the impression some give) the majority still do not - if only because entitlement breeds complacency and arrogance which undermines the serious pursuit of study and antagonises people.

 

In any case, other than the foolish and dangerous fire extinguisher thing, what was exact expression of violence on that day? My understanding was that it did not amount to a great deal and was primarily the smashing of windows of the offices in Millbank.

 

Indeed, the way the media have focuses and treated the protests, you would have thought it was a replay of the poll tax riots. In part I think it's because the media has become a great deal more sensationalist over the years, and will naturally focus and magnify whatever dramatic element of the story there is in an effort to reduce its viewers into a quivering mass of fear or indignation. Another reason is that I suspect this is partly the shock of finding that students might be capable of saying boo to a goose after all (British Students usually being unusually apathetic compared to their French equivalents), so what we're seeing is not so much shock at the violence or vandelism itself, but at having the common image of students undermined a little - hence the Daily Mail's focus on the 'middle class' aspect (although I disagree with your sweeping statement that students can not be middle class).

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Oh I see. Wondered what you meant. Should not have said that. Students can be middle class on the basis of what their family situation is. I meant to say that those students were not middle class. Although it is class distinction that I find a bit tricky, though I do recognise them as being blurred in certain respects.

 

Not quite with you on the issue of entitlement. I do see such education as something that should be available to all if they want it. I don't know if you are joking when you mention it being an issue that it creates arrogance and complacency. Do you mean in the sense that students less devoted to studying or just treat it as a fun time because its easy to get and not compulsory?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Thinking on though, I remember the protests that surrouding one of the G8 (or one of the G something) conferences in London about ten years ago.

There were smashed windows, graffiti, even the Churchill status got a hilarious mohican. There was anger at that and much criticism. But I don't remember there that much discussion over it. It wasn't termed a riot, from memory. But far exceeeded the student fees protest in violence.

[VinnieK]

Not quite with you on the issue of entitlement. I do see such education as something that should be available to all if they want it.

 

Yes, and I agree that as a broad principle higher education should be available to all to want it and satisfy whatever requirements are deemed suitable for such study.

 

I don't know if you are joking when you mention it being an issue that it creates arrogance and complacency. Do you mean in the sense that students less devoted to studying or just treat it as a fun time because its easy to get and not compulsory?

 

In a sense. There are some students in every university who think that they are entitled to be there because they did well in their A-Levels and they think it only right that someone as fantastically bright as they should be at university. The problem is that with a number of subjects the leap from A-Levels to undergraduate is conceptually so large, and that A-levels really aren't always that great a measure of talent or intelligence, and so a number end up squandering a significant portion of their first year due to a mistaken sense of their own aptitude or sense of being exceptional which is apparently (to them) validated by their mere presence in university.

 

I once did some seminar work as an associate tutor for two distinct groups of students. One group was made up of Foundation level students (mature and international students and/or those who hadn't done well enough or done the right subjects to progress straight onto the undergraduate degree of their choice) and the other of first year undergraduates. The former group were a lot more enthusiastic, and although at times some of them struggled or lacked confidence took their studies seriously and worked hard (and did well in their assignments), and I suspect that this was in no small part because they realised that university was going to be difficult, that they were in a sense lucky to have the opportunity they had and should make the most of it.

 

The freshers, on the other hand, still riding high on their success at A-Levels were often a nightmare. They were rowdy, attendance at lectures, seminars and problem classes was patchy (I even overheard one group bitterly cursing one lecturer because he didn't put full lecture notes online, because it meant they'd have to turn up to lectures), often they didn't pay attention, didn't ask for advice or listen to it when it was given, and generally arsed about. I think the worst example of sheer laziness was being called over and asked by one student what a 'Group' was (see wikipedia, maths fans), despite the fact that the definition had been covered in that week's lectures, had been covered by the seminar leader that session during the first ten minutes during which the student was present, was written on the board not three metres away from them, and indeed was written down in their notes right under their nose. As a result, a significant number of the assignments I ended up marking were filled with what can only be described as nonsense, ranging from lazily (and erroneously) applying A-level knowledge where it didn't even make sense to do so to outright mentalism.

 

Now technically, these aren't bad students: their grades included a bare minimum of two A's, one in maths and the other in further maths, and this kind of material should have been relatively easy to grasp but I don't think it's unfair to say that I detected a sense of cosy entitlement affecting more than a couple - the idea that they deserved to be there, and because they were there they must be capable and so wouldn't have to do anything further or work any harder than they did at A-level to justify their presence there. You get them at all universities and the root of the problem is always the same: these kids take it for granted that they are, for want of a better description, 'university material', and take their place entirely for granted only to get slapped in the face a few months or a year down the line when it transpires that they've been wasting their time.