Wikkileaks

[pongo]

I bet the conspiracy theorists are pawing through too.

 

I am surprised that dissenters and free thinkers are still so casually dismissed as conspiracy theorists even by otherwise obviously very intelligent people. The society seems to have too easily accepted already the idea that govts are cynical and manipulate the flow of information to the advantage of business interests.

 

And yet govt itself, the media and much of the population are busy propagating and disseminating their own flaky conspiracy theories - eg fear of a global islamic conspiracy, the need for ever greater security theatre etc.

 

Meanwhile much of population seems to be in the process of brainwashing itself - whilst sleepwalking into a system of total control and monitoring.

 

And now back to X Factor.

[manshimajin]

I bet the conspiracy theorists are pawing through too.

 

I am surprised that dissenters and free thinkers are still so casually dismissed as conspiracy theorists

I don't know about you but I was referring specifically to the conspiracy theorists (alongside the ultra right - who are probably part of the conspiracy theory group anyway) not to the 'dissenters and free thinkers' - they are not the same people in my mind. Are they in your's?

 

It seems to me that a lot of people in smaller or bigger ways are in the latter group and modern communications will continue to increase their numbers and their cyniscm about the worlds of politics. But the conspiracy theorists will continue to see things under the bed that aren't there.

[Declan]

Did you notice Quintin Gill's response to Chris Robertshaw's considered criticism of the Public Accounts Comittee Iris report was to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory?

[Captain Thrush]

The gathering and dissemination of intelligence is not something our own leaders are likely to be subjected to although a copy of their personal CV's would be worth a read if only to cheer us all up! Wikkileaks is a great idea if only to make the USA's security services realise just how vulnerable they are. We've had "Private Eye" available on the newsagents shelves for years now with Ian Hislop parading interesting facts concerning the UK's great untouchables misdemeanors. It's interesting that whilst Ian's received only a steady stream of defamation law suits to deal with the poor sod in the US military who apparently stands accused of passing the information could be charged with espionage with resultant death penalty. It's no wonder the USA is tightening up security on its borders. They've turned paranoia into an art form!

[manshimajin]

But I can't say that there have been huge surprises in what has come out.

 

• The Saudi monarch is worried about the Iranians - no surprise
  
• The North Koreans are in a parlous state and dangerous - no surprise
  
• The US, Russia and Brits are worried about Pakistan's nuclear programme - no surprise
  
• Prince Andrew is a wally - how dare they...no surprise
  
• The conservatives hadn't experience in managing the deficit before coming into government in the UK - no surprise
  
• Mossad planned to harness minority and student groups to overthrow the Iranian regime - yes - makes sense
  
• US diplomats got the low-down on opposite numbers at the UN - no surprise
  
• Muammar Gaddafi never travels without Galyna Kolotnytska, a Ukrainian nurse described as a "voluptuous blonde - well if I had the choice....but not earth shattering
  

The one thing that personally I have found intriguing and a bit out of left field was the fact that China hoped that Korea would be unified under the ROK regime.

[pongo]

Did you notice Quintin Gill's response to Chris Robertshaw's considered criticism of the Public Accounts Comittee Iris report was to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory?

 

This is a very good example of the way in which language is casually used to dismiss points of view. Nigel Farage is frequently dismissed as a conspiracy theorist.

 

Churchill, who irritated the establishment and the right during the 1930s, would perhaps have been dismissed as a conspiracy theorist had the expression been in common use. And perhaps again at Fulton.

[Amadeus]

WikiLeaks Website Pulled By Amazon After US Homeland Security Pressure

 

http://paidcontent.org/article/419-wikileaks-website-pulled-by-amazon-after-us-homeland-security-pressure/

[manshimajin]

Today's shattering revelation - the Russian Government, Russian Police and the Russian mafia are caught up in one another's activities and pockets...wow I would never have realised that without Wikileaks...

[Theodolite]

The gathering and dissemination of intelligence is not something our own leaders are likely to be subjected to although a copy of their personal CV's would be worth a read if only to cheer us all up! Wikkileaks is a great idea if only to make the USA's security services realise just how vulnerable they are. We've had "Private Eye" available on the newsagents shelves for years now with Ian Hislop parading interesting facts concerning the UK's great untouchables misdemeanors. It's interesting that whilst Ian's received only a steady stream of defamation law suits to deal with the poor sod in the US military who apparently stands accused of passing the information could be charged with espionage with resultant death penalty. It's no wonder the USA is tightening up security on its borders. They've turned paranoia into an art form!

 

We did have Roly Drower and manxman.com blackpages.

 

But of course they sorted Roly out big style. And some might say it cost him his life.

[gazza]

so it begins

 

Scotland Yard poised to arrest WikiLeaks boss over rape allegations after Interpol issues warrant

[pongo]

Eitherway though Assange is well and truly fucked - he'll be in a US maximum security prison with an ass like a clowns pocket for the next 40 years after this.

 

Why ? These are not Top Secret leaks (if these even are leaks and not deliberate releases of information). This is relatively low level stuff which masses of people had access to. Some of this information probably wanted to be leaked.

 

The most damaging of these, so called, cables (like anyone uses cables anymore) seem to mostly be a bunch of bitchy comments about international leaders.

 

The US media and political reaction is out of all proportion. The media should be seeing these releases as interesting source material - instead of making JAssange the story.

 

JAssange is not a US citizen. So what are they going to charge him with ? And what about Freedom Of Speech. This is probably less de-stabilizing, for example than the Pentagon Papers which were published by the NY Times in the early 70s.

 

The Wikileaks banking revelations which are supposed to be due early next year could be much more interesting.

 

Defence Secretary Robert Gates (who stayed on from the GW Bush administration) has already dismissed the strategic and diplomatic importance of this information. It's worth listening carefully to his words all the way through to the end here:

 

[manshimajin]

[but that is the point. They are not telling us anything new - just corroborating what we already know. That is what I find so compelling about wikileaks.

So we are not so dumb after all.

 

I gather today the disclosure was that the UK army was undermanned in Helmand Province in 2007. I seem to remember a few debates in the UK Parliament about troop levels and helicopter numbers etc...

 

Oh and that Gordon Brown wasn't in control of things...

 

I gather that there has been some sort of 'cyber' attack on the site anyway - so you are probably right that it is cactus.

 

I was looking forward to finding out that Sarkozy has a 'Napoleon complex', that the Iraqis can't agree amongst themselves and that President Karzai's regime is corrupt etc etc

[P.K.]

Me personally I'm waiting for the:

 

"Compromise candidate Tony Brown turns out to be the compromise candidate" moment.

 

 

Hmm... I suspect I'm in for a bit of a wait...

[VinnieK]

I gather today the disclosure was that the UK army was undermanned in Helmand Province in 2007. I seem to remember a few debates in the UK Parliament about troop levels and helicopter numbers etc...

 

The main leak criticising the British Army operations didn't actually mention manpower much, the criticism was far more concerned with the tactics being employed and particularly the deal negotiated with the Taliban to allow the army to peacefully withdraw. Maybe you're being a little bit overly cynical, the details provided by the leaks may not be Earth shattering revalations, but they do paint an interesting portrait of international affairs (such as the US government leaning on that of the French due to a French company selling China components for infra red equipment that was thought to be sold on to Iran's military) and, as has already been said, confirmed a lot that we've already guessed, which certainly isn't without value.

[Chinahand]

I think Wikileaks is rapidly loosing any high moral ground it might have had with its behaviour.

 

No doubt it is putting lives at risk - for example leaking info on identifiable Iranian dissidents helping the Americans - and publicizing critical infrastructure is grossly irresponsible.

 

I fully admit the US often acts badly, but I also think it can do good and when compared with any of its main rivals it is far far superior. Believe me you don't want a world run with a Chinese or Russian mind set.

 

Wikileaks is undermining diplomacy, stopping politicians being candid with each other and making it harder for countries to understand each others motives. That is dangerous.

 

Diplomacy requires privacy. Openness does not mean that people and governments shouldn't be allowed to discuss things in confidence. Its a complicated nexus and the ends of the US's diplomacy are a lot more transparent than Russia's, China's, or even Germany's or the UK's (official secrets rule OK!).

 

Creating a space for whistleblowers to uncover misdeeds is something I could support. But that isn't what Wikileaks is doing in this case. Its salaciously gossiping using America's diplomatic correspondence.

 

It may be interesting, but its not in the public interest - in fact quite the opposite, its dangerous and playing with people's lives.