Tweek Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 Education is the cornerstone of any industrialised society. Depriving people of it is criminal and building up huge problems for the future! I was taliking to a student teacher who, when he graduates, will owe £51,000 to the UK government! This is madness, it's a throwback to the days when only the rich upperclasses could afford to go to university. A typical Conservative policy! Although there probably were non student troublemakers in their midst, how else does any group attract the attention of government and the media in this country? For the media to have majored on the trouble makers in this makes you wonder who is pulling their strings! Why do 40% or 50% of school kids have to go to university anyway? The degree has become devalued IMO, as people can get one with just 9 hrs a week 'study'. 20-60 years ago only around 5% of the population got degrees, and degrees were a lot harder then, as was the process of qualifying to study for one. By no means are all degrees equal. Except for trains - an 'engineer' could only be called an engineer if he got a good degree. Every ****er is an engineer these days. Why should the tax payer have to pay for 50% of a generation to sit mostly on their arse and get pissed for 3 years, many hiding from the unemployment stats, and more often coming out with something not very useful to the economy? Time the whole system was revamped IMO. The UK is going nowehere at the moment, and needs to get back to hands on making things and generating sales - instead of this poncified service sector which has caused nothing but the UKs' near bankruptcy. A good first step would be to fund those degrees that the country actually needs - and if people want to get a 'BA in Ancillary Studies' then they should pay for it themselves IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 I agree that there are a lot of worthless degrees and that there are obvious low standards generally for some subjects. It is these areas which should be addressed! But to say that all university education is worthless and being abused is wrong. Where do Teachers, Doctors, Scientists, Engineers etc all come from? What will happen is that people who can not afford it and may be very talented will slip through the net, lesser talented students from wealthy backgrounds will get the breaks leading to the resurgence of the old class system! I know of students who just can't get part time work to fund anything at all and are scratching on grants. They can't even get jobs on summer breaks! Higher education is vitally important to the future of this country, yes it needs overhauled but in a fair manner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 It may very well be important but if there is no money for it then it cannot be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 It may very well be important but if there is no money for it then it cannot be done Then there is no future for the country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 It may very well be important but if there is no money for it then it cannot be done Just to reiterate, if I've got the figures right HE costs about 1% of Government revenue. Savings from the cuts that have been made are probably in the region of 0.4% to 0.5%. If the UK is really that skint, there are much bigger fish to fry. Not that HE funding couldn't benefit from a review, but this is not even nearly the best way - merely amongst the easiest to sell the populace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alias Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 I agree that there are a lot of worthless degrees and that there are obvious low standards generally for some subjects. It is these areas which should be addressed! But to say that all university education is worthless and being abused is wrong. Where do Teachers, Doctors, Scientists, Engineers etc all come from? What will happen is that people who can not afford it and may be very talented will slip through the net, lesser talented students from wealthy backgrounds will get the breaks leading to the resurgence of the old class system! I know of students who just can't get part time work to fund anything at all and are scratching on grants. They can't even get jobs on summer breaks! Higher education is vitally important to the future of this country, yes it needs overhauled but in a fair manner! How many teachers/doctors/scientists/engineers bring money into the island? Not many. Even if university doesn't give students 'worthy' academic experience on some degrees, it still gives the manx student an experience of different cultures and different way of doing things. If the island's got a chance of creating some non-tax based industry, university education is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 It may very well be important but if there is no money for it then it cannot be done Just to reiterate, if I've got the figures right HE costs about 1% of Government revenue. Savings from the cuts that have been made are probably in the region of 0.4% to 0.5%. If the UK is really that skint, there are much bigger fish to fry. Not that HE funding couldn't benefit from a review, but this is not even nearly the best way - merely amongst the easiest to sell the populace. That is all very well but as we all know, when cuts are being made logic and rationality are never the lead issue, yes they could cut one or two things that would save far more but nobody would really know about it but if they messup funding and tuition fees then it makes news and the propoganda engine gets the message across the natiobn is skint so the populace are then less likely to kick off when other not so public things are cut, i.e. tha arts, facilities for pensioners, etc. Like it or not the best way is not always the most effective in the long run and the reaction to these cuts just shows how a minor amount can be manipulated to kick up enough fuss, now have a look at what other things have been cut whilst this is going on that got masked from going into the news by the student unrest. mass manipulation is a very useful and clever propoganda tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Like it or not the best way is not always the most effective in the long run and the reaction to these cuts just shows how a minor amount can be manipulated to kick up enough fussWhat do you mean, Jimbms? The reaction of who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Like it or not the best way is not always the most effective in the long run and the reaction to these cuts just shows how a minor amount can be manipulated to kick up enough fussWhat do you mean, Jimbms? The reaction of who? Work it out for yourself, you are supposed to be educated or was all that money wasted on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Student who threw fire extinguisher off roof gets 2 years 8 months. I wonder if he can do a degree course in the nick? Linky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Well, what to say. He was very foolish letting himself get carried away like that. A few moments of stupidity and a life time changed as a result. His behaviour was extremely dangerous and reckless. His punishment will affect him all his life. Its definitely a warning to people not to take things to extremes with reckless behaviour. You have to say it is a reasonable to say that someone could have been killed if they'd been hit by someone throwing a fire extinguishers off a multistory building into a crowded courtyard below. So is nearly 3 years excessive for an act which could be interpreted as attempted manslaughter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 So is nearly 3 years excessive for an act which could be interpreted as attempted manslaughter? A simple question but perhaps the answer is complicated. This person did what he did whilst part of a mob and people in such situations often behave in ways they would never do otherwise. Did he really intend to kill or injure anyone? Or did he just do it without thinking about the possible consequences? And what good might a spell in prison do him if, normally, he would never do such a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Evil Goblin - I think you raise good points - the one I want to say more about is when people act without thinking about the consequences. The legal position is very clear, the jury is asked to think what a reasonable person would conclude would be the consequences of their action. I deliberately didn't say murder - there is no motive - but I did raise manslaughter. In my mind there is no doubt that a death could hae been a reasonable consequence of what was done in this case. Society can't just shrug its shoulders at dangerous reckless behaviour and say if the perpetrator hadn't been caught up in the moment he wouldn't have done it, and he wasn't thinking of the consequences. That is the behaviour the state has to attempt to deter. If people start to act as a mob it doesn't stop the consequences of their actions or their responsibility for them. The man was criminally reckless - he's paying for it. And he's been made an example of, to say to others that if they think they can act without thought of the consequences then they are wrong. It is sobering to think how that man's life has changed, but think what would have happened to a victim or their family if that fire extinguisher had landed a metre or so differently. That is also a sobering thought, and the judge is saying society takes such thoughts seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweek Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Student who threw fire extinguisher off roof gets 2 years 8 months. I didn't think he would get 'let off'. 'boom boom!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I agree with what you say, China, but there are some points worth thinking about. If people start to act as a mob it doesn't stop the consequences of their actions or their responsibility for them The evidence on mob behaviour suggests that in such an environment people often act irrationally and it is pertinent to ask whether some mob behaviour might not be regarded in the same way as the Continentals regard a crime passionel i.e. they weren't in possession of their right minds when they did whatever it was. Scope for someone to earn a PhD by investigating mob behaviour and how to effectively manage it? I believe some work has been done on this but either it has not been enough or what has been learned isn't being applied. to say to others that if they think they can act without thought of the consequences I think the probem may be that they do not think what they are doing. If they're not thinking, then they won't think of the deterrent. I'm not sure that the prison sentence, whilst it will satisfy the need for some punishment, will do much, if anything, to deter him or others, if in a similar situation in future, from behaving irresponsibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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