Violent Protests As Mps Vote To Raise Tuition Fees

[Evil Goblin]

What I wrote is that Parliament decides on what is criminaI.

 

Stop dodging, Spook, and answer a straight question - are you advocating that right and wrong are to be determined by the Bible as the inviolate Word of God or by humans?

 

Where have I ever claimed that secular law is the same as moral God Given law?

 

But you were advocating severe punishment on the basis of the secular law. Does this take precedence over God's Law?

 

Is that what Jesus taught?

Jesus taught that the Law should be obeyed by all i.e. he taught adherence to the Torah. So, is the OT to be ignored - if you are a true Christian you must accept the Law. Or are you suggesting that God the Father of Jesus and the OT God are not the same?

[manxy]

Is that what Jesus taught?

To be perfectly honest, I do not know what Jesus taught.

There is a book that has been wrote by a number of people and has been translated, edited and changed over many years and whether this has been done to simplify things in making it a better story or to create a better understanding of past events that may be true or even false, then again, I do not know.

 

I personally could not trust anything without a high degree of certainty and unfortunately, the book for all its reaching out to a higher ground, does not do it for me. This may well be regarded as blasphemous by some religions, but I do not have the same faith in something that they do and I have no problem with that, as we each make our own choices for reasons that we believe is the right one at that particular time.

 

This choice of judgment may conflict against various laws and even values of faith, but a persons actions - referring back to thread of violent protests, should still be accountable. A person found guilty of violence will be dealt with according to law and whether they go to prison or given some other judgment, then each case is to be judged with regards that persons circumstances and boundaries of law.

 

That said, I have to disagree with the following, because it scares the heck out of me

Prison should be not only a place of incarceration. It should also be a place of punishment.

 

A place where people having once been sent experience privation, hardship, and deprivation of all their freedoms, where their human rights are severely limited to little more than those required for the continuance of life, and not places more like a hostel with closed doors.

 

A place where people on release leave with a cold horror at the prospect of ever returning.

 

Where people have been subjected to whatever works to ensure they toe the line in future, and places where criminal recidivists who will not comply with civilised and social behaviour can be stored for very long times if for no other reason than to safeguard the public from ingrained antisocial behaviour and criminality that is a part of some people’s innate character.

As far as I understand, being sent to prison is the loss of liberty and this therefore, is the punishment. Side issues from this would likely be victims, partners, friends, work and probably loads more, but liberty to do and go where they want is restricted and that is their punishment.

 

This brings me back to what you earlier mentioned

a child of one of these antisocial criminal families who was adopted as very young baby, only a matter of days old, and was brought up in a good Christian home alongside natural born siblings of the couple who adopted.......

also

Some people have to be trained. If they prove unable to be trained then they must be chained.

I now have reservations about this 'good Christian home' because of your thoughts and acceptance of punishment and if the child did not accept the rules of that particular home, then I certainly could see a 'cold horror' of the child never wanting to return.

 

There were other areas which concerned me further, but the more thats wrote, the more that can be pulled apart.

I have to say though, this thread has turned from 'Replying to Violent Protests As Mps Vote To Raise Tuition Fees' into a type of witch-hunt and I'm to blame as much as anyone else.

It might be better (for me anyway), to disagree with bits and pieces that Spooks written and return back onto the thread again .

I will however, return any comments to defend my corner and if **** happens then blame it down to breeding

[grant]

And who sets the criteria by which behaviours will be judged? Criminal behaviour is what Parliament in statute law says it is,

 

You have answered your own question.

 

The last Labour Government was overly keen on framing many relatively innocuous behaviours as Criminal Offences. Spook - you have a totally simplistic view of the causes of human behaviour, which, I suspect, may bve due to your ignorant religious stance. Human behaviour can and does have complex causes and not recognising that is just silly.

 

Human behaviour is flawed and usually sinful, it is only by following the will and teaching of The Lord and attempting to follow the ways of Jesus that decent behaviour results.

 

I know a lot of christians, I have never known one that would make such an outrageous suggestion that the only people that can behave in a decent manner follow the will and teaching of the lord and jesus.

 

If I was like you spook and followed your ways, I'd be ashamed of you. You do your church no favours, you actually do your church (and your religion) a disservice. You couldn't be a worse advert. You have a very nasty, spitefull streak. Your arrogance knows no bounds.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I am curious as to know what Spook thinks in terms of appropriate punishments. Why is imprisonment so favoured?

What is the appropriate punishment for particular crimes?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

 

I know a lot of christians, I have never known one that would make such an outrageous suggestion that the only people that can behave in a decent manner follow the will and teaching of the lord and jesus.

 

If I was like you spook and followed your ways, I'd be ashamed of you. You do your church no favours, you actually do your church (and your religion) a disservice. You couldn't be a worse advert. You have a very nasty, spitefull streak. Your arrogance knows no bounds.

But without putting words in Spook's mouth, I assume he means that people who genuinely lead a Christian life will behave in a decent manner. That's a different matter to people who from his perspective call themselves Christians but do not follow what he considers to be the Christian way of being.

[jimbms]

I know a lot of christians, I have never known one that would make such an outrageous suggestion that the only people that can behave in a decent manner follow the will and teaching of the lord and jesus.

 

If I was like you spook and followed your ways, I'd be ashamed of you. You do your church no favours, you actually do your church (and your religion) a disservice. You couldn't be a worse advert. You have a very nasty, spitefull streak. Your arrogance knows no bounds.

But without putting words in Spook's mouth, I assume he means that people who genuinely lead a Christian life will behave in a decent manner. That's a different matter to people who from his perspective call themselves Christians but do not follow what he considers to be the Christian way of being.

But who is to say the christian way is right, no proof can be offered about this bar the likes of spook spouting off parts of a work of fiction as truth, what hope is there for these religeons when the Koran, the Bible and the Torah all have part in them that prove each is refering to the exact same God yet the followers of each religion break their own creed by showing ignorance and intollerance to each others religion and advoce the murder of each other. moral path my arse.

[Terse]

Human behaviour is flawed and usually sinful, it is only by following the will and teaching of The Lord and attempting to follow the ways of Jesus that decent behaviour results.

That is the kind of outright lie that only a hypocritical christian loony could produce.

[Evil Goblin]

intollerance to each others religion and advoce the murder of each other. moral path my arse.

Sounds quite like the OT God's attitude, doesn't it!

[Tweek]

Human behaviour is flawed and usually sinful...

...yet so much fun!

[spook]

What I wrote is that Parliament decides on what is criminaI.

 

Stop dodging, Spook, and answer a straight question - are you advocating that right and wrong are to be determined by the Bible as the inviolate Word of God or by humans?

 

Right and wrong are made clear in the bible but not secular criminality, that is determined by the lawmakers of a land. A person who breaks the criminal code is a criminal. I see nothing in Western secular law that compels anyone to break the Law of The Lord.

 

Where have I ever claimed that secular law is the same as moral God Given law?

But you were advocating severe punishment on the basis of the secular law. Does this take precedence over God's Law?

Does “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's” not answer that?

Is that what Jesus taught?

Jesus taught that the Law should be obeyed by all i.e. he taught adherence to the Torah. So, is the OT to be ignored - if you are a true Christian you must accept the Law. Or are you suggesting that God the Father of Jesus and the OT God are not the same?

Jesus brought a new covenant. What so many people call the “New Testament” includes The New Covenant,

What’s more to focus on The Torah in isolation is wrong in both Judaism and in Christianity, as to do so ignores the further revelations from The Lord as communicated by The Prophets which form part of the full Tanekh (the “Hebrew Bible”) and which direct the jews as to the moral and legal direction that they should take as their history unfolds and circumstances change.

The importance of this point relative to what Jesus said can be seen reported in Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I see nothing in Western secular law that compels anyone to break the Law of The Lord.

What are the Laws of the Lord? Are they quite extensive?

[spook]

I see nothing in Western secular law that compels anyone to break the Law of The Lord.

What are the Laws of the Lord? Are they quite extensive?

 

That is simple. The question was asked of Jesus and His response is to be found in Matthew 22:35 – 40.

 

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

Similar questions have been answered in various places in The New Covenant and in every case the answers run to the same theme

[Chinahand]

Spook - do you not see the contradiction between this and the xenophobic, murderous, witch-stoning, food proscribing God of the Old Testament.

 

You talk of a New Covenant - it really is quite a change in direction don't you think?!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I mean, can you list the laws? Are they specific and discrete?

[spook]

Spook - do you not see the contradiction between this and the xenophobic, murderous, witch-stoning, food proscribing God of the Old Testament.

 

The Tanekh is an unfolding thing, a living document in today’s parlance. The Laws of Moses i.e. the Torah were the laws that The Lord set out for His People at the time of Exodus and were appropriate for them as time passed and circumstances changed.

 

That is where the disclosures in The Prophets come in which resulted in changes to many of the 613 laws, and which also saw the emergence of the pharisees who were specialists in applying the Law to specific cases and it was corruption by the pharisees that Jesus addressed.

 

You talk of a New Covenant - it really is quite a change in direction don't you think?!

 

It’s not a change in direction from the laws that had been given to Moses and further disclosed to The Prophets, it is a change from the way that the scribes and pharisees were abusing and distorting The Law for their own ends.

 

The mistake that people make is assuming that Leviticus and Deuteronomy is The Law and that is the end of the story. Such is not the case.

 

Disclosure of The Law does not end with what is contained within the Tanekh. There is also a record of the disclosed “Oral Law” which is to be found in the various versions of the Talmud, and in which is included divine inspired Rabbinical interpretation of The Written Law ensuring that The Law is fitting with Man as he emerges from his expulsion from Eden.

 

It is amazing to me how much that a few years ago was quite common knowledge has been forgotten or is being ignored in modern teaching of a political correct thing that has little to connect it with Christianity as it was known, taught, and understood as recently as even fifty years ago.