Violent Protests As Mps Vote To Raise Tuition Fees

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think this President of the Union did very well on this programme: http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/42658-violent-protests-as-mps-vote-to-raise-tuition-fees/page__pid__575233__st__60#entry575233

 

We live in a civilised society that survives on the basis of law …. and ORDER. People who break the law really should be hit hard in every way and from every direction.

 

That is a fair point, but what about the vast majority who were not breaking the law. Is it right that they should be herded together in a confined space for hours with no loos, access to drinking water etc?

It really isn't a fair point because a civilised society does not need to rest on the imposition of law and order. Rather we have a society that is so many uncivilised aspects to it that is being maintained by those who seek to quell objections to it. When talking about this idea of order, it has to be asked whose order is being maintained.

 

There are a minority in most rallies who latch on and what to cause a disturbance just for the sake of it and because they are anti authority. The police need to come up with a better tactic of controlling or arresting those people whilst at the same time allowing the remaining to protest peacefully. "Kettling" does not appear to work, all it does is antagonise and enrage those who are behaving in a peaceful and lawful manner.

But I have you have a peculiar understanding of what is going on. These protests are not SUPPOSE to be undertaken by a discrete group with identical politics. They are all manner of people who are affected and involved and they have different politics. Different groups have different ways of wanting to get heard and some don't take too kindly to having the enemy (the police) get in their way and herd them. But they are all there for the same reason.

[manxy]

If it was simply a protest then I would agree, but what was taking place was a riot, and our future monarch was not only threatened, he was attacked.

 

He was attacked and I was so pleased to see the look on his face, and the look on the face of his horse-faced wife, in the papers. Why should these people be exempt from what is going on around them? They have a very privileged life. I'm sure they have never had to worry about their children's education, or where the next penny is coming from. There is nothing more offensive to me than seeing two wealthy knobs floating around the West End in a bullet proofed Roller when there is a recession on and people are losing their jobs and now the chance to get educated in order to get any opportunity at all once the economy recovers. That is the really offensive thing to me, that Charles' position in life actually exists within modern society.

 

I'd have happily pelted his car myself if I thought it would reinforce the message that these anachronistic people and positions have no place in modern society. The fact that they exist simply aggravates those who are suffering the full effects of a recession that has been caused by greed, and corporate mendacity, and the wholesale crooked activities of a global elite of which Charles is self evidently representative. Off with their heads indeed!

I disagree with the above statement and do not find it enjoyable to see people afraid for their own lives.

[manshimajin]

The contrast between reaction to austerity measures in Ireland and the UK is stark.

 

After 4 austerity budgets in Ireland there still has been very little public protest despite cutting of welfare, minimums wages, public service redundancies etc etc...The main protest was some time ago by pensioners! People may grumble but in general they are just getting on with things.

 

On numerous visits to the UK over the last couple of years I couldn't help feeling that people there had been conned by politicians into believing that somehow the financial crisis was no going to have an impact on them. The axe would never fall. There was a false sense of security and a belief that it happened to everyone else but not Britain. Now the penny is dropping that standards of living there have to be cut to pay for bolstering the banks' capital, to pay for interest and loan repayments and to pay for the redundancies. And suddenly the Brits are the Greeks of Northern Europe. The reality is that things are going to get tough - people can march, attack the monarchy, smash windows in Oxford Street and throw paint over statues but it is still going to get tough! IMO they have not been gradually introduced to the idea of austerity as in Ireland but it has suddenly hit them between the eyes - so inevitably the reaction is more extreme.

[thesultanofsheight]

IMO they have not been gradually introduced to the idea of austerity as in Ireland but it has suddenly hit them between the eyes - so inevitably the reaction is more extreme.

 

I'm not so sure, but I'd agree that national pride has genuinely been dented in Ireland. They really believed that they were the Celtic Tiger economy that was showing Europe how to do it, and now its been revealed that it was all debt, hubris, and slack economic policy around the introduction of Euro. They are not biting back because, by and large, the Irish are embarrassed that their own politicians sold them a false illusion of prosperity. As you say the UK is different in that there is an arrogance that it shouldn't happen to them, and now it has they are angry at everyone else. That is the difference I think in that the Irish are just angry with themselves for believing it all, whereas the Brits are angry at everyone else looking at them and saying 'I told you so'.

[VinnieK]

To begin with re-establish a one bite of the cherry A level exam with results based wholly on the exam.

 

Then limit the number of university places to around 3% of the sixth form students each year, introduce competitive entrance exams, cream off the top achievers to fill the available places, and so restore free education to the best of the crop.

 

That way the best suited will get the best education and the tax payer will get the best return for the cost.

 

In short, go back to what worked, and worked well.

 

I don't think that's really a solution. Plenty of duffers, grinders and hacks got through the old system and I'm willing to bet that as a proportion of all undergraduates the situation wasn't that much different to today. Making exams more technically difficult and artificially restricting the number of places fails to address the underlying problems in education today and is as flawed and perhaps even as shortsighted as doing the precise opposite in the name of encouraging access or what have you.

 

One of the biggest problems, which was the case for previous generations as well is that A-levels rarely test a pupils ability to think for themselves and exercise the skills they're supposed to have learned. Instead the whole system has been based entirely on the principle of rote learning and the passive absorbtion of facts and tricks needed to get through an exam based largely on book work. Simply raising the difficulty of the exam without changing its focus gives an illusion of selection, and the nature of the exam is a large part of why pupils at grammar and public schools have always performed better that the state sector: because they have the resources, freedom and the time to carefully tutor and cajole as many students as is possible who may otherwise be pretty mediocre in the ancient art of academic hoop jumping and superficial cleverness. At best it's a band aid for some very fundamental problems.

 

Firstly, the higher education sector should be properly funded. As a proportion of GDP, the UK has lagged behind the OECD average for too long. As for student finance, I'd prefer to see a move towards a system of means tested grants covering fees and maintenance, providing higher education for those who are capable but can't afford to go rather than subsidising the places of those who can.

 

Secondly, the decrepit A-Level system should have been abandoned decades ago. What's needed is a broader system, perhaps similar in principle to the IB that encourages pupils to think for themselves, and fosters analytic and critical skills by shifting the focus of assessment away from testing pupils' ability to passively absorb knowledge and cram and towards testing their ability to apply that knowledge and those skills to unfamiliar or abstract problems. That way perhaps raw ability, rather than endless drilling might be offered the chance of shining through.

 

Of course, this in turn requires reform of the entire secondary sector, which all requires money and willpower, and as long as the UK government is obsessed with wasting vast sums of money pissing about pretending its still a world power and with the idea that the solution to every problem is constant, dubious and wasteful assessment and measuring practices (which always entails a massive increase in bureaucracy and box ticking over actual improvement), the UK will never get a worthy education system.

[asitis]

It isn't regrettable, it is outrageous. And I don't go along with your whole 'ordinary woman or man' perspective. These are the sort of tasks that form their role and this is a the sort of behaviour that ought to be expected from a instituion that uses coercion to quell popular movements and protests, so there is no feeling sorry for the police and absolutely no restraint required were the police to become violent.

 

Based on the behaviour of the "protesters" I agree that the action taken by the police was outrageous and incommensurate with what was taking place around them.

 

The police should have gone in mob handed cracked many more skulls than they did, made mass arrests, identified as many of the “protesters” as they could and ensure that when it comes to university education any presently in receipt should be rusticated, and any not should be precluded from ever being accepted.

 

We live in a civilised society that survives on the basis of law …. and ORDER. People who break the law really should be hit hard in every way and from every direction.

 

For one thing those who attacked His Royal Highness’s car should have been shot on site simply on the basis that for a while it was unclear what their intentions were, and the security guard should have played it safe by protecting our future monarch at ALL costs.

 

Very well said sir !

[manshimajin]

I'm not so sure, but I'd agree that national pride has genuinely been dented in Ireland. They really believed that they were the Celtic Tiger economy that was showing Europe how to do it, and now its been revealed that it was all debt, hubris, and slack economic policy around the introduction of Euro. They are not biting back because, by and large, the Irish are embarrassed that their own politicians sold them a false illusion of prosperity. As you say the UK is different in that there is an arrogance that it shouldn't happen to them, and now it has they are angry at everyone else. That is the difference I think in that the Irish are just angry with themselves for believing it all, whereas the Brits are angry at everyone else looking at them and saying 'I told you so'.

I'm sure that you are right that there is a big difference in national characters between UK and Ireland. I recall that when they researched last year how positive people felt across Europe Ireland came 5th out of 22 (despite already being deep in recession) and the UK 12th, behind Germany.

 

Certainly there is a sense of embarrassment in Ireland that the prosperity that they had was transitory and anger that the politicians, regulator, banks and developers were lying to them. But I suspect that the positive side of the Irish character says 'we are where we are - let's get on with it!' whereas the Brits have a 'why is it happening to us - it's not fair - we are a world power' attitude. I do think that it has taken the UK much longer to realise that it is in a woeful economic state despite all the warning signs. This may be because when the financial crisis hit it was not that long before the UK general election was due so lots of things were done to massage reality and keep it from the electorate. Now that's done and dusted the grim realities have to be faced up to and instead of being a gradual dawning of reality which happened in Ireland, the UK population has been hit all of a sudden with the bad news and the cuts - no wonder they are angry and looking to take it out on 'the establishment'.

[slinkydevil]

He is the future King of England. He was in a bullet proofed limo and surrounded by Police guards - I doubt very much that he was afraid for his life. He may have been affronted that this might happen in London and that is about it as there was no way a brick would punch its way through bullet proof glass. He has not earned the right to be insulated from the rabble just because of his accident of birth. Quite clearly the peasants are revolting and as he chooses to flaunt his wealth and good fortune by driving in such a manner then he deserves all he got in my book. These students are fighting for the right to a decent education and as Charles was put through several very expensive schools are the British taxpayers expense I couldn't think of a better target on the day. The days of respectful forelock tugging to our 'betters' is over ... fuck him!

 

Besides what else you say, that particular Rolls doesn't have bullet proof glass and offers little protection. It's toughened glass - you don't break bullet proof glass by throwing a tin of paint against it. They should have been in the Jaguar B7 spec protection, which is armour-plated and has tinted, bullet-proof windows.

 

I'd like to have seen the 'protesters' get the door open - by all accounts Royal Protection Squad officers were nearly drawing weapons, and why not it's their job. They were also not 'surrounded by Police guards' but outnumbered so it could have tipped easily into a more serious issue, if mob mentality had ensued. If they had got into the car I imagine they'd have got a 'cap in the ass'.

 

The days of respectful forelock tugging to our 'betters' is over ... fuck him!

 

In your mind maybe, but it's not. You can go right back through history and there has always been anti-establishment from people, it hasn't changed much, maybe just shifted power around a bit. If you believe there arn't 'classes' any more, you're deluded.

[kipperman]

u never see them protesting at 8 in the morning because they r all lying in bed still drunck from the student bar which is subsidied by us. but they have to do 4 or 5 hours a week god bless them. they should think of the hard working folk that pay tax to support them doing there history of art degree lol

 

 

 

 

i need a gap year to lol

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I imagine they do think of those hard-working people, but they probably think of them as being a largely self-interested and hopeless bunch of fuckers.

[kipperman]

I imagine they do think of those hard-working people, but they probably think of them as being a largely self-interested and hopeless bunch of fuckers.

yes self intrested in paying the morgage and the bills get in the real world uni is about learning 2 help sociaty be it throungh tax or a doctor not sociology,art and other hobbies. i support learning but not time wasting.

[manxy]

He is the future King of England. He was in a bullet proofed limo and surrounded by Police guards - I doubt very much that he was afraid for his life. He may have been affronted that this might happen in London and that is about it as there was no way a brick would punch its way through bullet proof glass. He has not earned the right to be insulated from the rabble just because of his accident of birth. Quite clearly the peasants are revolting and as he chooses to flaunt his wealth and good fortune by driving in such a manner then he deserves all he got in my book. These students are fighting for the right to a decent education and as Charles was put through several very expensive schools are the British taxpayers expense I couldn't think of a better target on the day. The days of respectful forelock tugging to our 'betters' is over ... fuck him!

 

Besides what else you say, that particular Rolls doesn't have bullet proof glass and offers little protection. It's toughened glass - you don't break bullet proof glass by throwing a tin of paint against it. They should have been in the Jaguar B7 spec protection, which is armour-plated and has tinted, bullet-proof windows.

 

I'd like to have seen the 'protesters' get the door open - by all accounts Royal Protection Squad officers were nearly drawing weapons, and why not it's their job. They were also not 'surrounded by Police guards' but outnumbered so it could have tipped easily into a more serious issue, if mob mentality had ensued. If they had got into the car I imagine they'd have got a 'cap in the ass'.

 

The days of respectful forelock tugging to our 'betters' is over ... fuck him!

 

In your mind maybe, but it's not. You can go right back through history and there has always been anti-establishment from people, it hasn't changed much, maybe just shifted power around a bit. If you believe there arn't 'classes' any more, you're deluded.

I concur with SD.

Boredom - I did not agree to your reasoning about many things and have put a few of my own reasons below. This will probably put me in your line of fire, but unless you can convince me otherwise that my views are wrong, I think it'll probably end up with both of us agreeing to disagree.

 

I know you wrote about bullet proofed windows etc and I certainly concede that the news articles were conflicting information and I believe you wrote it how you read it. I'm hoping that we both agree that the glass was smashed and Camilla (please note, I'm not keen on her anyway, but for different reasons) was assaulted whilst she was in the vehicle.

 

My point of view was that I would not like this to happen to my relation or anyone else's relation because the person who assaulted her went way over the top and this shouldn't boil down to 'well its ok, its only.... whoever etc'. To me, it was a really bad way of demonstrating their point of view and I found it hard to believe that these people are allegedly students, as they were fighting, smashing things up and causing disturbing scenes which if they became to be the leaders of tomorrow, how can I respect them for what they did?

 

I therefore disagree with your point of view above from my perspective, as its my job to save lives and I'd imagine that Camilla, Police, students and rioters all became victims in one way or another.

 

You said, "Quite clearly the peasants are revolting and as he chooses to flaunt his wealth and good fortune by driving in such a manner then he deserves all he got in my book."

I could feel your utter dislike or disdain towards these people, but does it stop at Royalty or does it apply to those who are wealthy as well? If its wealth, what figure or amount of possessions should a person have or own that makes a person wealthy, because I would like to know?

 

So what next? Will the UK Government be happy with the current state of things because I very much doubt it and will likely rush through further restrictions and policies to attempt to prevent this from happening again.

 

It's sad really, just sad, as education is the process by which society deliberately transmits its accumulated knowledge, skills and values from one generation to another and has anything really been learnt from this apart from problems in one form or another?

[Snaipyr]

I imagine they do think of those hard-working people, but they probably think of them as being a largely self-interested and hopeless bunch of fuckers.

yes self intrested in paying the morgage and the bills get in the real world uni is about learning 2 help sociaty be it throungh tax or a doctor not sociology,art and other hobbies. i support learning but not time wasting.

So tax payers supported you through 11 years of learning, but you wasted your time and couldn't be arsed learning to spell?

[Snaipyr]

I'm not so sure, but I'd agree that national pride has genuinely been dented in Ireland. They really believed that they were the Celtic Tiger economy that was showing Europe how to do it, and now its been revealed that it was all debt, hubris, and slack economic policy around the introduction of Euro. They are not biting back because, by and large, the Irish are embarrassed that their own politicians sold them a false illusion of prosperity. As you say the UK is different in that there is an arrogance that it shouldn't happen to them, and now it has they are angry at everyone else. That is the difference I think in that the Irish are just angry with themselves for believing it all, whereas the Brits are angry at everyone else looking at them and saying 'I told you so'.

I'm sure that you are right that there is a big difference in national characters between UK and Ireland. I recall that when they researched last year how positive people felt across Europe Ireland came 5th out of 22 (despite already being deep in recession) and the UK 12th, behind Germany.

 

Certainly there is a sense of embarrassment in Ireland that the prosperity that they had was transitory and anger that the politicians, regulator, banks and developers were lying to them. But I suspect that the positive side of the Irish character says 'we are where we are - let's get on with it!' whereas the Brits have a 'why is it happening to us - it's not fair - we are a world power' attitude. I do think that it has taken the UK much longer to realise that it is in a woeful economic state despite all the warning signs. This may be because when the financial crisis hit it was not that long before the UK general election was due so lots of things were done to massage reality and keep it from the electorate. Now that's done and dusted the grim realities have to be faced up to and instead of being a gradual dawning of reality which happened in Ireland, the UK population has been hit all of a sudden with the bad news and the cuts - no wonder they are angry and looking to take it out on 'the establishment'.

 

Irish news has been horribly depressing for at least 2 years - apart from the recession and its consequences there's been the horrific accounts about paedophile priests as well as drug gang shootings, traveller families killing each other, car-loads of teenagers regularly dying in road traffic accidents, people dying on trolleys in overcrowded hospitals etc, etc. Maybe Irish people have just become conditioned to bad news?

[Lost Login]

Maybe Irish people have just become conditioned to bad news?

 

Maybe they have but also I think there is a realisation of the very serious state they are in and that it calls for very tough measures. In addition there may also be an acceptance that over recent years they have had a very good/high social welfare payments and public pay levels and also that many of the changes that are being introduced affect everybody

 

In the UK I think the opinion of many/some is that the Tories are in the main targetting the less well off whilst protecting their rich friends. I also think there is a suspicion that they and making changes for ideological reason but blaming the deficit.

 

I am not a student but if I was I might have found the increases easier to accept if the money was ring fenced and going to provided additional finance to universities rather than just going into the Government pockets. I had seen the wealthy also hit by tax rises and that the people implementing were not multi millionaires and who looked to individuals who had structured their affairs to in effect be non UK tax payers for advise.