Cambon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 That's not correct though. It's a digital interface with sets of pins used for different data channels. A single pin isn't assigned a single function like the one described above, messages to downstream units are handled along the data bus, which will either work, or not. The quality of the cable won't really make a difference. Basic acceptable form with half the pins? What on earth are you on about? The only valid argument for high quality cables that I know of is if you want to extend the distances offered by the standard cables, but most of us don't want to do that. Vacuum tube pre-amp, lol! I have not looked at this recently, but if I remember correctly, of the 20 signal paths in an HDMI cable only 12 are digital, there in an earth, a ground, a 5 volt power wire, and several other non-digital paths. Basically acceptible - it will give you a picture and sound but not much more. The most valid argument for spending more on an HDMI cable is the quality of the plugs and the quality of the soldering/crimping of the 40 connections. And yes, gold plated HDMI plugs are better because they don't corrode and give a more reliable connection. Compressed, lossy digital audio,lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arronc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If it's digital then it either works or it doesn't The only difference is in quality of build like you said, no point going too cheap if the build quality is absolutely shit. a £100 gold plated cable won't give a better picture than a "working as intended" £5.99 cable. As long as it's got the things you need (HDMI1.3 or 1.4) then that's all you need Not true : cheap cables will give you digital jitter. In audio, this means that because of corruption in the clock sync, you get a strange glassy sheen to digital audio with cheap cables. I dont know what effect would be viable in a picture which was experiencing jitter in the video sync, but I suspect it would look something like a overlayed noisey texture. You're only ever going to see this in exceptional circumstances, like over ten meters or something. Pretty in depth research on this kind of thing: http://www.audioholi...testing-results "At lengths less than 4 meters you can just about use silly string (OK, not really) and get HDMI to pass at any current resolution" Took a look : we are talking about quality though. What someone would a pass (works) someone else would call fail (sounds/looks sh1t) Its not just under exceptional circumstances : digital jitter in copper and optical cables is a real measurable scientific fact, as is end termination echo. These are always present, and what we are talking about is that everyone has a difference tolerance as to the point at which the degradation becomes visible/audible to them, and how much they care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somewhatdamaged Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I've got friends who rip MP3s to 192kbps and claim they are perfect copies of the CD. I even showed them the same song in FLAC and they still couldn't tell the difference Some people just don't have very good hearing Plus, like has been mentioned before different music demands a different quality. Your typical everyday Cheryl Cole style shite probably sounds perfectly acceptable in a lowish bitrate, whereas classical and (in my opinion) rock and metal sound vastly different from lossless to lossy. All comes down to your ears though! The only time i ever got "jitter" on my blu rays (using a PS3 and a Samsung LED TV) i was absolutely baffled as to what was causing it. I was getting a momentary increase in speed every minute odd which was driving me MAD!! Turns out my cheapish HDMI cable wasn't 1.3 compliant and a new cable did the job. It wasn't the price of the cable that was the issue, merely that is was old and not 1.3 compliant. My new cables were around £12 each. Never had an issue, and that's with a HTPC, Sky Box, and PS3 using them Arronc, i still disagree. You won't get artifacts on screen regardless of the price of your cable as it's a digital image. You either have a picture, or you don't One HDMI cable won't give a better picture than another. Unless i misunderstood your post of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arronc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I've got friends who rip MP3s to 192kbps and claim they are perfect copies of the CD. I even showed them the same song in FLAC and they still couldn't tell the difference Some people just don't have very good hearing Plus, like has been mentioned before different music demands a different quality. Your typical everyday Cheryl Cole style shite probably sounds perfectly acceptable in a lowish bitrate, whereas classical and (in my opinion) rock and metal sound vastly different from lossless to lossy. All comes down to your ears though! The only time i ever got "jitter" on my blu rays (using a PS3 and a Samsung LED TV) i was absolutely baffled as to what was causing it. I was getting a momentary increase in speed every minute odd which was driving me MAD!! Turns out my cheapish HDMI cable wasn't 1.3 compliant and a new cable did the job. It wasn't the price of the cable that was the issue, merely that is was old and not 1.3 compliant. My new cables were around £12 each. Never had an issue, and that's with a HTPC, Sky Box, and PS3 using them Arronc, i still disagree. You won't get artifacts on screen regardless of the price of your cable as it's a digital image. You either have a picture, or you don't One HDMI cable won't give a better picture than another. Unless i misunderstood your post of course! Yeah : i think some misunderstanding : digital jitter in a serial clocked signal is a specific engineering term. http://www.broadcastpapers.com/whitepapers/Understanding%20Jitter%20Measurements%202BW-18906-0_CPC06.pdf?CFID=20516414&CFTOKEN=45926c0d35866796-603BA1DC-A26E-8071-52B1B489F8BF7FD4 discusses the matter in quite some depth. You will /always/ get image distortion unless jitter is zero, and it never is quite zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Yeah : i think some misunderstanding : digital jitter in a serial clocked signal is a specific engineering term. http://www.broadcast...2B1B489F8BF7FD4 discusses the matter in quite some depth. You will /always/ get image distortion unless jitter is zero, and it never is quite zero. I think there's some misunderstanding alright. Read my link again, it uses the tools referred to in your link. Basically acceptible - it will give you a picture and sound but not much more. The most valid argument for spending more on an HDMI cable is the quality of the plugs and the quality of the soldering/crimping of the 40 connections. And yes, gold plated HDMI plugs are better because they don't corrode and give a more reliable connection. Compressed, lossy digital audio,lol! Not much more what? Corrosion suddenly a big problem in your average living room? CD's are compressed lossy digital audio. More certified cambon cluelessness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arronc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Yeah : i think some misunderstanding : digital jitter in a serial clocked signal is a specific engineering term. http://www.broadcast...2B1B489F8BF7FD4 discusses the matter in quite some depth. You will /always/ get image distortion unless jitter is zero, and it never is quite zero. I think there's some misunderstanding alright. Read my link again, it uses the tools referred to in your link. Basically acceptible - it will give you a picture and sound but not much more. The most valid argument for spending more on an HDMI cable is the quality of the plugs and the quality of the soldering/crimping of the 40 connections. And yes, gold plated HDMI plugs are better because they don't corrode and give a more reliable connection. Compressed, lossy digital audio,lol! Not much more what? Corrosion suddenly a big problem in your average living room? CD's are compressed lossy digital audio. More certified cambon cluelessness. Yes your link does refer to the some of the measuring equipment mentioned in my link. In the summery of the article you post, it sort of states in summary that in the real world, their Pass/Fail has little validity, as it depends on other factors (because it is a sliding scale of Better/worse in reality). So no misunderstanding from my end, just oversimplification from yours. All non inert substances corrode in air, so yes corrosion is happening in lounges across the world right now. Corroded end connectors lead to signal bounce at the termination points. this reflects up the cable out of phase with the waveform travelling in the primary direction, causing variable signal attenuation at different frequencies, and harmonic distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Not much more what? Corrosion suddenly a big problem in your average living room? as discussed above. In the case of a digital signal, it starts by random blocking, chirps and whistles in the sound, etc. CD's are compressed lossy digital audio. More certified cambon cluelessness. Certified Cambon fact more like. The format is limited by a 96db dynamic range and a maximum high frequency response of 22.05Khz (half the 44.1Khz sampling frequency). The limited high frequency only caters for the audio part of the music. However, music is sensory, and when performed or re-produced well caters for more than just the ears. Very high frequencies can be sensed in other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Arron, you're discussing a non-issue. Jitter may have been an issue for very early hdmi devices, but it's just not something that'll manifest itself now in current tech. I've never, ever heard of anyone actually seeing these effects you're talking about, let alone reliably documenting a degradation in experience. It's just the kind of nonsense Monster will put on a hdmi cable to justify the 10x cost. as discussed above. In the case of a digital signal, it starts by random blocking, chirps and whistles in the sound, etc. Now you've got confused again. You're talking about a missing pin, that wouldn't result in the effects you're talking about. The format is limited by a 96db dynamic range and a maximum high frequency response of 22.05Khz (half the 44.1Khz sampling frequency). The limited high frequency only caters for the audio part of the music. However, music is sensory, and when performed or re-produced well caters for more than just the ears. Very high frequencies can be sensed in other ways. Yes, but studio techniques now include compression and masters from various digital sources. Those valve amps you love so much are now synthesised using software not racks of equipment. Much of what you're talking about is pointless because of where the sound has come from in the first place. Like I said, what media you need varies depending on what you're listening to, where, and what it's running on. To generalise and say 'download is shit, cd ftw' is simplistic bollocks. I can download a bloody cd ffs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arronc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Arron, you're discussing a non-issue. Jitter may have been an issue for very early hdmi devices, but it's just not something that'll manifest itself now in current tech. I've never, ever heard of anyone actually seeing these effects you're talking about, let alone reliably documenting a degradation in experience. It's just the kind of nonsense Monster will put on a hdmi cable to justify the 10x cost. You will see the effects of it if you look for them : reduced of colour depth, reduced contrast, reduced image focus. If the cable is about to fail your will get tearing and blocking. On the audio side you will get a glassy brittle, hollow sound. If it getting close to failing you will squeeks, pops. You will already have seen all these artefacts in bad digital satellite reception conditions, but in a more extreme way. Its not a non-issue : its just something you personally don't care about. Thats totally fine. I don't watch much TV myself, so I don't care much either, and have no Idea what HDMI cables are connecting my TV stuff, as long as the kids don't complain, its good enough for me But that is not the same as suggesting there is no problem present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 You will see the effects of it if you look for them : reduced of colour depth, reduced contrast, reduced image focus. If the cable is about to fail your will get tearing and blocking. On the audio side you will get a glassy brittle, hollow sound. If it getting close to failing you will squeeks, pops. You will already have seen all these artefacts in bad digital satellite reception conditions, but in a more extreme way. Its not a non-issue : its just something you personally don't care about. Thats totally fine. I don't watch much TV myself, so I don't care much either, and have no Idea what HDMI cables are connecting my TV stuff, as long as the kids don't complain, its good enough for me But that is not the same as suggesting there is no problem present. The guy who spent thousands on test equipment didn't find them, so I'm not likely to with my eyes and ears. I'm calling bollocks, and will remain chuffed with my reasonably priced cables. Digital satellite is a very different issue, there you do have a variable quality signal so error correction jumps in and degrades quality. HDMI cables, even the cheap ones, are certified to a standard that will mean you shouldn't ever see anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Now you've got confused again. You're talking about a missing pin, that wouldn't result in the effects you're talking about. Err, yes, that is generally what happens when pins start to fail to contact due to corrosion. Yes, but studio techniques now include compression and masters from various digital sources. Those valve amps you love so much are now synthesised using software not racks of equipment. Much of what you're talking about is pointless because of where the sound has come from in the first place. Like I said, what media you need varies depending on what you're listening to, where, and what it's running on. To generalise and say 'download is shit, cd ftw' is simplistic bollocks. I can download a bloody cd ffs! Actually, studio techniques have always used compression, and those vacuum tubes you seem to hate so much are all over good studios, in guitar amplifiers, compressors, even on some PC soundcards. Cheap synthesised systems are great for home studios, but that is about the limit of there use. Unfortunately, that is where a good proportion of pop music comes from, and that is a lot of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 How did a thread about HMV manage to be completely derailed by such boring anoraks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 How did a thread about HMV manage to be completely derailed by such boring anoraks? It was Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 How did a thread about HMV manage to be completely derailed by such boring anoraks? It was Slim Well, okay... I guess that would explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arronc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If HMV could get 80 quid for a TV cable, they would be fine and would be able to meet their commitments to the bank. Because of the tightwads like Slim, they are unable to make sufficient margin, and have to close stores instead. We intend to discuss each accessory they sell in depth like this one later on in the thread. So, do you really need a sock to put an iPod in, and are HMV's any better than ones you could knit yourself for less money ? Do Apple iPod socks improve the sound quality by providing vibration dampening of the hard disks in iPod classics, allow the data to read off in cleaner way without so much cyclical error correction at the disk hardware level (which incidentally you can hear as a slight reduction in the amount of high end air around cymbals in compressed music) ;P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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