spook Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Prison should not be used as readily as it seems to be on our island. That being said prison should be punishment of last resort and so should be about loss of many things besides freedom. It should be about loss of dignity, loss of choice, loss of status, and loss of individuality. Rehabilitation should come lower in priority that whatever it takes to break an individual, and either reconstruct him into a better and law abiding person, or if that is not possible as is the case with too many people, training them to behave with a fear and even dread of the consequences should they not do so. The very idea of extending suffrage to criminals appals me and surely must to any other right thinking person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweek Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 It should be about loss of dignity, loss of choice, loss of status, and loss of individuality. Isn't that what hell's for? So what's the point, and why even waste money on prisons, if everyone gets what's theirs eventually? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 A person who has broken the democratically agreed law of the society in which they find themselves have the rights that society deems appropriate to extend to them as criminals. No more, and no less. I think you're making too much of this 'democratically agreed law of society'. The law is only an imposed code that is established by those who we just ratify to rule us through voting. Arguing on terms where I would pretend to think that imprisonment is necessary and where liberal democratic government is good, we can simply agree to disagree about the extent to which prisoners are afforded rights. But then you do have this idea of a 'stake' in society. I cannot agree with that, however, you argue it. Agree to disagree methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Given that Spook's pronouncements are so much at odds with the teaching of Jesus I suspect, in view of Matthew 7.21-23, that he will be directed by St Peter to the down elevator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But prison isn't, or shouldn't, be just about a loss of freedom. It should also be about rehabilitation yes but one of its purposes should to be a deterant against commiting a crime. If prison is no longer allowed to deny the convicted anything then what purpose would it serve.Rehabilitation? Such a poor word. People who commit crime are not outside of society and need to brought in. They are our society. If you mean such people can be made good then I seriously question how you can possible make a good man when you remove what is most important to him and what defines him as a human being - freedom. And to turn your question around, what reason have you come up with to say that they should still be allowed to vote?I don't agree with imprisoning, but if I was to judge others by the standards they profess to uphold when they talk fondly of voting and democracy then I cannot think why voting should not be extended. Voting is about having a representation of the whole of society, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But prison isn't, or shouldn't, be just about a loss of freedom. It should also be about rehabilitation yes but one of its purposes should to be a deterant against commiting a crime. If prison is no longer allowed to deny the convicted anything then what purpose would it serve.Rehabilitation? Such a poor word. People who commit crime are not outside of society and need to brought in. They are our society. If you mean such people can be made good then I seriously question how you can possible make a good man when you remove what is most important to him and what defines him as a human being - freedom. And to turn your question around, what reason have you come up with to say that they should still be allowed to vote?I don't agree with imprisoning, but if I was to judge others by the standards they profess to uphold when they talk fondly of voting and democracy then I cannot think why voting should not be extended. Voting is about having a representation of the whole of society, is it not? How can you have an MHK to represent you if you're not allowed to vote for one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Given that Spook's pronouncements are so much at odds with the teaching of Jesus I suspect, in view of Matthew 7.21-23, that he will be directed by St Peter to the down elevator. Where are my opinions about the treatment of criminals at odds with the teachings of Our Lord? Did he not say “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars”? Criminal law relating to acts that do not contradict Gods law is surely the same as anything that is “Caesars” in that it concerns state authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 How can you have an MHK to represent you if you're not allowed to vote for one? MHK's are required to represent everyone in their constituency no matter who voted for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Isn't that what hell's for? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I can only conclude, Spook, that you really do not understand Christ at all. I think you are one of the "wolves in sheep's clothing" that Jesus warned people about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I can only conclude, Spook, that you really do not understand Christ at all. I think you are one of the "wolves in sheep's clothing" that Jesus warned people about. Why don’t you expand on the assertion that I don’t understand the teaching of Christ? Maybe on a different thread? Who knows, we may singularly or jointly learn more on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 A good idea, Spook. I am going to be away travelling on business for the next couple of weeks and when I have the time and facility I will start a thread (unless you want to start one in the meantime). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 A good idea, Spook. I am going to be away travelling on business for the next couple of weeks and when I have the time and facility I will start a thread (unless you want to start one in the meantime). Let’s do it jointly when you get back so avoiding the "usual suspects" out on a spoiling mission. We can keep this polite, at least between you and I and anyone else who treats this seriously, and it could prove to be interesting, informative, and actually of some value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr blonde Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 If you mean such people can be made good then I seriously question how you can possible make a good man when you remove what is most important to him and what defines him as a human being - freedom. If freedom is most important to this hyperthetical person, why would he commit a crime if he risked having that freedom removed? Surely what that means is that whatever they did was prioritised above freedom at the point of commiting the crime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I am no criminologist, but I would have thought it depends on the crime, but people don't make rational and considered decisions at many times. When someone is violent, I very much doubt they give thought the possibilities of imprisoned prior to acting violently. And then there is the matter of getting caught. There are no guarantees and in many cases it is quite likely you can get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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