Bahrain

[When Skies Are Grey]

Thats obviously fake.....there's no way the Lotus would be that near the front!

[Declan]

Interesting debate regarding a double taxation agreement with Bahrain.

 

Dudley Butt has raised whether we should be signing agreements with the Bahraini Govt.

 

Eddy Lowey responds that it's the duty of the government of Bahrain (with the help of Saudi Arabia) to use force to maintain order in the streets.

 

Anne Craine's speech was incredible, she's spoken to the people in the Bahrain Government she was dealing with and the protests are totally remote from their life and she says it's been totally misrepresented by the English media. And anyway we're too concerned about human rights in this country and that country when we should be concerned about sexual and child abuse in this country.

 

Bish & Butt propose wait for three months.

 

Karran made two speeches one on each side of the debate.

 

They had a vote, then the President said I'll tell you after the break. Bizarre.

[Declan]

Some extracts from the Hansard of the Bahrain Debate -

 

Dudley Butt - Recently the process has started again and they are peaceful protests by the people who are

looking for reform. Some more people were killed last weekend and we saw on television last night where

rubber bullets and tear gas were being fired into crowds of unarmed protesters. Last night we heard, or saw on

the news that the Bahraini government, or royal family, have asked for help from Saudi Arabia and a

thousand Saudi troops have come into Bahrain last night with armoured vehicles to help quell what was a

peaceful protest. That on its own is quite disturbing. This morning the UN Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon,

has condemned both Bahrain and Saudi for their actions in this matter.

 

Peter Karran - I think it is the Shiites that are the ones that are not the majority and not the Sunni, and they are more the

Iranian side. There is the Iranian side or Shiites and the Sunni side is the Saudis and the ???

 

Eddie Lowey - "Let me take you to the… There are exceptional times taking place and if I use the word ‘Arab world’, I am

talking about the Arab world."

 

Eddie Lowey - I cannot say that I have got the answer; neither can anybody else in this Court to the present invitation by

Bahrain to their neighbours, Saudi Arabia, of which they have defence agreements, which call upon, when

they need assistance internally, they get it. No more different than the UK has international agreements with

NATO and they call from time to time for joint actions and support –

 

Dudley Butt: These are unarmed protesters.

 

Eddie Lowey: – unarmed; let me come to the… It is the duty of the governments of the day and I am not

taking sides on this, I know which side I am on, but I do have to be absolutely clear on this: it is the duty of

government to keep law and order in the streets of their particular jurisdictions.

Quintin Gill - "We could seek direct intervention, like in Iraq, and what good

has that done? What good has that direct intervention done? I think it was illegal, it was based on a false

premise that Iraq or Middle Eastern countries, which have their own traditions, very different from ours, and

their own aspirations, which in some way are different from ours, that we had a right to go in and tell people

how to run their lives. That is imperialism. That is colonialism and I do not accept that is appropriate, or was

appropriate, in Iraq."

 

Anne Craine - "I do think that it is worth just saying, Mr President, that we from the office have had contact with the

people that we met and did the business with in Bahrain. They are shocked by what is happening – absolutely

shocked and saddened. Furthermore, they are saddened by what is being betrayed by a UK-centric media as to

what is happening in their country."

 

Anne Craine - "If I might just say, Mr President, sometimes I think… and I do not denigrate it, but I think we do often

speak about Human Rights abuse, and that goes on in very many countries across the world. I think we speak

about it blithely, perhaps well intentioned, but I think we overlook the human abuse that goes on in our own

Island in terms of sexual and physical abuse of children, and maybe, if we are going to refer to Human Rights

being abused, we need to set our own record straight at home first before we start pointing the finger at other

countries."

 

Full debate from line 1665 - makes you proud doesn't it.

[Alias]

Full debate from line 1665 - makes you proud doesn't it.

I thought your previous post was being satirical! They are really quite insulting aren't they - maybe it's not such a bad thing our foreign affairs are outsourced to a different lot.

[slinkydevil]

Full debate from line 1665 - makes you proud doesn't it.

 

An embarrassment.

 

Eddie Lowey is first against the wall come the revolution

[Declan]

You can see why Eddie Lowey sympathises with the Bahrain's rulers - he's been an unelected member of the Government of a small island for decades as well.

[VinnieK]

An embarrassment.

 

An utter embarrassment from start to finish.

 

There's Eddie blathering on, alternately saying nothing, then saying two things at once ("I'm not taking sides... I know which side I'm on") and generally talking bollocks, likening bringing in foreign troops to suppress internal demonstrations to NATO's arrangements, and showing he knows bugger all about either topics.

 

Then you have Annie going off on a tangent about sexual and physical abuse, consciously or unconsciously knocking the debate off its rails with an utterly senseless comparison. As if it needs to be said: State sponsored violence against a population is a different matter entirely from individual cases of sexual or physical abuse within society, and the presence of the latter does not prohibit criticism of the former. Jesus, by her useless brand of reasoning UK residents should consider Pol Pot's legacy immune from criticism on the basis that Gary Glitter is British.

 

Then there's Karran suggestively identifying one side with Iran, and Gill relying on dubious, sub-sixth form cultural relativism to brush the whole thing under the carpet.

 

In fact embarrassing doesn't even begin to describe those excerpts, never mind the debate in general.

[Chinahand]

I very much agree our politicians have not been at all coherent in their reactions to Bahrain.

 

Mr Butt's Lowey's statements are frankly ridiculous; any use of force by the state has to be proportional. Isn't the man an ex-policeman? It seems incredible that he doesn't understand the difference between thuggery and maintaining public order; they are not the same.

 

Mrs Craine's remarks are also extremely weak.

 

What would I have said: [in typical politician double speak]

 

Firstly transparent, representative democracy is important and it is very regrettable that this situation has developed. The Barhaini government should open a dialogue and seek ways to reform so as to reduce tensions - opression is no solution, and violence will only make things worse. Policing demonstrations must not result in oppression.

 

The arrangements the IOM is entering into are in the interests of the Manx and Barhaini people and help to integrate both into the international community - these arrangements would not be objected to if democratic reforms were undertaken. The IOM regrets the violence in Bahrain and hopes the representatives of all the Bahraini people can work together for lasting democratic reform, but the current difficulties should not be a reason to stop the current arrangements being put in place with the IOM.

 

The Island reviews its international relationships and especially works with the UN to ensure compliance with its resolutions, and currently while concerned does not see the situation in Barhain, while serious, as being so serious to stop the work both sides have undertaken to reach this agreement.

 

- Yes its milly mouthed and basically meaningless, but I can understand the IOM wanting to continue with this agreement with Bahrain, but at the same time what is occurring their is deeply problematic and I am frankly disappointed that there were few expressions of concern for the repression and violence the government has used which can only make the situation worse in the long term.

 

Edited with sincere apologies to Mr Butt - it was Mr Lowey who so shocked me. Sorry.

[pongo]

Mr Butt's statements are frankly ridiculous.

 

i have only read Declan's highlights not the full context. But it seems to me that Mr Butt is saying that the IOM should be cautious of doing deals with a regime which is under the spotlight for shooting protestors. Could anyone really disagree with that?

[Declan]

I think China's misunderstood Dudley's comments, sorry if my extract is to blame.

[pongo]

Yes. He seems to be the only one with both a brain and a heart and the abilty to form sentences.

 

They should let him hold the conch.

[Evil Goblin]

China - perhaps a more honest statement would have been:

 

" We are enterng into these Tax Agreements to keep the OECD and EU off our backs and frankly we couldn't give a toss about what actually goes on in these other countries - that's their business, not ours."

[Chinahand]

Mr Butt's statements are frankly ridiculous.

 

i have only read Declan's highlights not the full context. But it seems to me that Mr Butt is saying that the IOM should be cautious of doing deals with a regime which is under the spotlight for shooting protestors. Could anyone really disagree with that?

 

 

I think China's misunderstood Dudley's comments, sorry if my extract is to blame.

I was in a rush this morning and got my politician's confused. Apologies. It was Mr Lowey saying:

 

"it is the duty of government to keep law and order in the streets of their particular jurisdictions"

 

That remark must be qualified by the use of reasonable force.

 

When you have the UN Human Rights Head condemning the "shocking" use of force by Bahraini security forces and their attacks on hospitals you can be reasonably certain reasonable force is not being used.

[VinnieK]

China - perhaps a more honest statement would have been:

 

" We are enterng into these Tax Agreements to keep the OECD and EU off our backs and frankly we couldn't give a toss about what actually goes on in these other countries - that's their business, not ours."

 

That is certainly the gist of things.

 

Lowey makes an early and typically cack-handed attempt at taking things to the extreme, saying what amounts to "the world is never going to be perfect, so we might as well carry on business as usual" (which received a burst of approval from Tony Brown).

 

He sets a particularly egregious example. LegCo's entire existence as a revising chamber is predicated on it being made up of those capable of bringing expertise and consideration to bear when looking at proposed legislation, and yet time and time again he comes across as a blabbering loon, constantly winging it and forming opinions without a moment's thought or reflection.

 

Gill seems to confuse his position as MHK for Rushen with that of the head of the UN and starts blathering insensibly about sanctions and direct intervention.

 

Craine tries to play down the demonstrations, naively taking the word of her department's contacts in Bahrain at face value and as much as saying that the extent of what's going on has been exaggerated by the media.

 

It's depressing to see how evasive a lot of them are, but even more so to see how inept they are at it. Lowey, Gill and Craine in particular try to dress up self interest in the guise of a moral argument, but are shown wanting, particularly in their ignorance and wonky reasoning. It's one thing when politicians are shown to possess a certain cynicism in motives, quite another when they also make themselves look a bit thick

 

Rodan, of all those opposed to the adjournment is the closest to being honest about the Isle of Man's interests in the agreement, even if at the start he engages in a weak argument of the "well, lots of countries are a bit naughty" variety. Also, to give credit where credit's due, the Lord Bishop tries to show some of Lowey's comments as the utter nonsense they are.