Christian Adoption

[Evil Goblin]

But as I have said, a Theist will see evidence where you do not. As for advantages, belief can give a platform of certainty to hold to in an uncertain world and add stability to aspects of life. It can also give meaning to existence when otherwise you have to face the disturbing fact that in the end existence has no meaning whatsoever. The only "purpose" to life is to live it in accord with our natures. I am sure a true believer such as ScotsAlan or Spook could give a more comprehensive list of benefits. Life is a pragmatic business and if something works for you, great.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV - the Theist will see the evidence around them in the events of the world - you will see the same things but not recognise them as evidence because you do not believe.

And the issue becomes one of standards of evidence. If theists can really see evidence around them in events in the world, then what are those events? If the explanation offered amounts to poor evidence from a non-believers perspective then there is no good reason to believe. No good reason than to think that the theist is deluded.

 

If you claim that your God is intelligence or there is an intelligence that pervades the universe, etc., then what is your evidence? If your evidence for this is poor or if you have none then I have to reserve judgement on whether it is true or not.

 

It may be that you accept low standards of evidence in order to form your understanding of the world. Fair enough, but should people not be aiming higher?

 

As for advantages, belief can give a platform of certainty to hold to in an uncertain world and add stability to aspects of life. It can also give meaning to existence when otherwise you have to face the disturbing fact that in the end existence has no meaning whatsoever. The only "purpose" to life is to live it in accord with our natures. I am sure a true believer such as ScotsAlan or Spook could give a more comprehensive list of benefits. Life is a pragmatic business and if something works for you, great.

And I agree, that the answers, although unsupported with good evidence, do offer certainty when someone sets aside the truth and believes in them.

Heaven offers comfort in the face of death; the role of a worshipped God offers an authority figure that satisfied servile tendencies; and it does offer comfort to those who are going through hard times.

 

And I think that we are inclined to form understandings of the world detached from reality or dream up explanations that make life easier. It may be our psychological weakness.

 

But there are problems with these sort of so-called advantages. Of those I mentioned, is a belief in heaven, servility, and praying for good things to happen really healthy and beneficial.

Does not believing in heaven mean that we do not treat our life in this world as importantly as we should? If we think there is something better coming up or just another life, then will we treat our existence in the here and now as preciously as we ought?

And what about a person's self reliance and self-esteem when they pray to a God for support when the chips are down? With servility, is it quite easy to see how this is not a good thing.

[Evil Goblin]

And the issue becomes one of standards of evidence.

Which standards - those of the religion of science or those of the belief system in question?

 

If you claim that your God is intelligence or there is an intelligence that pervades the universe, etc., then what is your evidence? If your evidence for this is poor or if you have none then I have to reserve judgement on whether it is true or not.

 

It may be that you accept low standards of evidence in order to form your understanding of the world. Fair enough, but should people not be aiming higher?

I am making no claims. As for what is a low/high standard of evidence, that will depend on individual views of wehat is the correct criteria to use in making the judgement.

 

And I agree, that the answers, although unsupported with good evidence, do offer certainty when someone sets aside the truth and believes in them.

Heaven offers comfort in the face of death; the role of a worshipped God offers an authority figure that satisfied servile tendencies; and it does offer comfort to those who are going through hard times.

 

And I think that we are inclined to form understandings of the world detached from reality or dream up explanations that make life easier. It may be our psychological weakness.

Life is a pragmatic business. I am not sure the reference to servile tendencies is necessarily justified. The existence of some agreed unquestionable authority does, in itself, offer a ground for stability on societies which does not exist where only the differing subjective views of humans are the basis for standards and laws.

 

Does not believing in heaven mean that we do not treat our life in this world as importantly as we should? If we think there is something better coming up or just another life, then will we treat our existence in the here and now as preciously as we ought?

I think you are right - we should not live for a future in a heaven which (at least in my view) does not exist.

 

And what about a person's self reliance and self-esteem when they pray to a God for support when the chips are down? With servility, is it quite easy to see how this is not a good thing.

Perhaps we all need a crutch to lean on now and again?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Which standards - those of the religion of science or those of the belief system in question?

Neither has set standards. The belief system in questions has no standards of evidence itself, unless you are referring to particular instances of supposed 'proofs' as mentioned in a book of scripture, such as a world shattering 'burning bush'.

 

I am making no claims.

I thought you had given some definition or explanation as to what you understand as your God. And one attribute that I could discern from your rather nebulous description was intelligence/consciousness.

 

As for what is a low/high standard of evidence, that will depend on individual views of wehat is the correct criteria to use in making the judgement.

The forms of and amount of evidence required does differ greatly depending on what is being claimed. But individuals tend to have similar standards in determing the truth on other matters as we really on scientific explanations.

 

We do also apply the same standards of evidence in dismissing other beliefs. People don't belief in the Little People of the Isle of Man anymore. That's because it is understood that such things do not exist on their basis of there being so little evidence for their existence. They have been supposedly seen years ago and there is folklore about them. But that's all the evidence there is. And monsters would not to be thought to be believed in the same way.

 

And theists do require very good evidence in support of their claims where they relate to our world, considering their claims to KNOW that such things exists. More so when they say their God is loving, intelligent, intervenes in human life, etc. How do they KNOW?

 

You are right. Agnosticism is the sensible position. But as is atheism.

[ScotsAlan]

 

I'm saying all that cause I think it's pretty much the case here, Non of us who believes in God can show you God.. But that doesn't mean HE isn't there! I can list some of the many reasons that make me strongly believe in God, But it won't necessarily make sense to all of you, But even that doesn't mean it's not the truth!

 

Peace and blessings..

 

 

Can you list some of those reasons?

 

I have already admitted defeat: that the arguments against are better than the arguments for.

 

And I have to say, my defeat has been graciously received :-)

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Life is a pragmatic business. I am not sure the reference to servile tendencies is necessarily justified. The existence of some agreed unquestionable authority does, in itself, offer a ground for stability on societies which does not exist where only the differing subjective views of humans are the basis for standards and laws.

It might offer ground for stability, but there is no evidence or indication that it does so. We can't even say that authority in the form of government offers stability.

 

Perhaps we all need a crutch to lean on now and again?

But is it good to delude oneselves about look to a figment of our imagination for help or take action ourselves to look to others. Or even to work towards a society where people help others more?

[Chinahand]

Gosh ... what to say.

 

Evil Goblin, I don't think I am as in favour of scientism as you seem to be saying I am!!

 

Rather I think people should not attempt to give their beleifs more authority than they actually have.

 

That doesn't mean every belief has to be backed up by evidence and proof, but if it doesn't have that we should be honest enough to say so and not claim God has ordained this or that belief in his magic book!

 

I started this thread saying I don't think Christians should necessarily be stopped from fostering or adopting - there are many parts of Christianity which has no dispute with secular humanism.

 

But there are some areas which do disturb me which do not fit in well with a diverse, tolerent, cosmopolitan society. To justify these beliefs by claiming they are ordained by God gives them a lot of authority - I very strongly feel that is not justified - I don't think you are going to particularly disagree with me, and so I'm not really sure why you are going on about scientism.

 

Evil Goblin are you happy for a Muslim to say apostates, adulterers and blasphemers should be stoned to death ... and to accept their evidence that this is a moral policy because it is ordained in the Koran?

 

Thankfully Christianity has gone through the Enlightenment and has lost much of its bite, but Catholics still campaign against divorce reform in Ireland and Spain - should secular married couples be forced to remain married in loveless and even abusive relationships with no hope of legal recognition of a later partnership just because of Catholic Dogma on the sanctity of marriage?

 

These are real issues where the religious side in the debate claim their position is supported by God. They certainly feel they are justified in that belief, but I feel it is worth questioning that and rejecting dogmatic formulations for society.

 

Evil Goblin are you really such a cultural relativist to say their claim of authority should be unchallenged? Sure they belief its true, but must we just accept it too?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

And how can theists claim to know, just on the basis that they have a formed a view of the world with a God in it?

 

If other people have religious views surrounding a God that only reveals itself to believers and cannot be demonstrated to non-believers then there is absolutely no reason why anyone should come to believe. They have been given no good reasons to.

 

Although I wonder whether Evil Goblin would advance the idea of trying to work one's imagination to such an extent to reify a personal God.

 

I do think, Evil Goblin, that when you talk about your (almost) personal God that you have reified out of a desire for it, that you make the mistake of assuming that others have done the same. Christian beliefs are very different. Christians believe in a loving, merciful God that requires worship or adoration. That manifests in the real world by intervening. Created the universe, and all sorts of the other qualities and actions. That is quite different from the God you have, from what you have explained.

[&roid]

Greetings all.. Sorry I'm making a "reply to all" kind of response, I've read all the comments and will try my best to answer what i can now, and maybe go back later and make proper replies.. So just be patient with the newbie

 

First, I have to admit that - even when i disagree with you - i still appreciate the way some of you here think and analyze. I went through some religious debates with believers from other religions (Hindu) and couldn't agree on most of the things they believe in, since they weren't relying on acceptable bases.. and yup, to me it was all a blind faith..

But here it's different cause the way non-believers think ( of course, not all of them ) is based on scientific and logical methods ( And that's what I'm going to try using in my reply ).

 

So, Am i contradicting myself valuing the scientific, logical thinking methods and believing in God?

Well, I don't think so.. here are some of my reasons why..

 

- I do not understand how atheists justify this complicated universe with everything in it, without almighty creator behind it? even the humblest uneducated person would conclude that any creation have a creator behind it.. and that the creator is more advanced than whatever he creates.. and no matter how intelligent that creation is, he can't reach his creator's abilities.

[ There is a story about a very humble illiterate Bedouin who was asked about the evidence of God's existence? And he simply answered -with the little things he experienced in his modest life-: " If The droppings Indicate the camel, and the traces Indicate the walking, So do not a sky full of great constellations, and a land with broad paths, Indicate the all Knowing, the all aware God?

 

That's exactly why i do believe there is a GOD, in the first place.

 

- Of course, believing there is a God necessitated knowing him, But as i mentioned before with my limited abilities i can't reach him alone, That's why HE sent his messengers and prophets to tell us about him.

 

So yup, I follow the Abrahamic religions, Actually i believe in them all, I do believe that the Torah and Bible are the word of God ( but they got distorted by human later ) and that the Qur'an is the Pure word of God now and till the judgment day( since it was never changed or distorted and will always be the same ). I do believe Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jesus and Mohammad came all with the same religion from the same God, and they are all his messengers and prophets.

 

So, I guess now you all can guess I'm a Muslim! and therefore I follow the Qur'an's teachings in my life and stick to them, relate to them etc

 

- But, How do i know that the Qur'an is the word of God, and wasn't made up by "Mohammed" ?

Well, It's known to all that "Mohammed" was unlettered ( he never learned to read or write ) and God wanted him like that just to prove it was God's words not Mohammed's.

 

Qur'an Is full of miracles that no human can produce, But as the atheists believe in Science and evidence, I only ask them to search the scientific Miracles of the Qur'an. A book that was sent fourteen centuries ago ( AND WAS NEVER EVER CHANGED OR EDITED ) yet stated a number of scientific truths that we have only been able to uncover by the technology of the 20th century! i think such a book deserve you to stop and think about it, if you were truly looking for the truth.

 

- So here i am.. Can any of you blame me for believing in a miraculous book that was passed to us 1,400 years ago by an unlettered man, yet included great scientific truths that we only discovered recently?

If you do blame me and think i have a blind faith, then how do you explain all the scientific truths in Qur'an, if it wasn't the "the most knowing" passing his words to us?

 

I know Islam has the "bad reputation" today due to the media and recent political incidents etc, BUT i hope that you all can still be objective, and can see the topic neutrally.

 

 

P.s 1 As you can see from my posts, I'm just a regular person who -sometimes- likes to share thoughts and opinions, I'm -obviously- not specialized or highly educated in religions or whatever.

 

P.s 2 Please do search the scientific Miracles of the Qur'an, here's one many sites that can help:

http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm

 

 

Peace and greetings

[La_Dolce_Vita]

- I do not understand how atheists justify this complicated universe with everything in it, without almighty creator behind it? even the humblest uneducated person would conclude that any creation have a creator behind it.. and that the creator is more advanced than whatever he creates.. and no matter how intelligent that creation is, he can't reach his creator's abilities.

But we don't. Atheists are simply of the outlook that there is nothing to indicate that a creating being created universe. There is nothing about the universe that indicates that some intelligence has designed it.

 

No doubt you are looking the subject from a perspective of someone who already thinks it is certain or a distinct possibility. Being religious, this is very likely. But rather than talk of an uneducated person, a person who has had no interaction with theistic beliefs might not think that the universe was created by a being at all.

 

But it doesn't matter, if people have this idea that the universe must have been created, just because it is complicated, such a view is not rational without evidence to back it up. Just because something is complicated does not mean it must have been designed by an intelligence.

 

 

- Of course, believing there is a God necessitated knowing him, But as i mentioned before with my limited abilities i can't reach him alone, That's why HE sent his messengers and prophets to tell us about him.

But where is your evidence that these prophets were sent by God? Is the Qu'ran all you have?

 

 

- But, How do i know that the Qur'an is the word of God, and wasn't made up by "Mohammed" ?

Well, It's known to all that "Mohammed" was unlettered ( he never learned to read or write ) and God wanted him like that just to prove it was God's words not Mohammed's.

And the supposed fact that Mohammed could not read or write is enough reason to believe that a deity exists and passed on his rules and commandments?

Qur'an Is full of miracles that no human can produce, But as the atheists believe in Science and evidence, I only ask them to search the scientific Miracles of the Qur'an. A book that was sent fourteen centuries ago ( AND WAS NEVER EVER CHANGED OR EDITED ) yet stated a number of scientific truths that we have only been able to uncover by the technology of the 20th century! i think such a book deserve you to stop and think about it, if you were truly looking for the truth.

The Quaran is full of miracles and so is the Bible. But then so is Harry Potter. But what do you mean by a miracle? Something that flies in the face of physics or just divine intervention?

 

- So here i am.. Can any of you blame me for believing in a miraculous book that was passed to us 1,400 years ago by an unlettered man, yet included great scientific truths that we only discovered recently?

If you do blame me and think i have a blind faith, then how do you explain all the scientific truths in Qur'an, if it wasn't the "the most knowing" passing his words to us?

I don't know if I can blame you. Did your parents teach you about Islam or did you come to it yourself? But I think you are making a mistake being so credulous as to accept what is stated in some ancient book, which provides very poor evidence of the existence of the God you believe in, especially (as you say) you make decisions based on it.

 

I know Islam has the "bad reputation" today due to the media and recent political incidents etc, BUT i hope that you all can still be objective, and can see the topic neutrally.

It's just as bad as Christianity. I don't think Islam is singularly terrible.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I have had a brief look at the website. I am not that impressed, I must say. Obviously I view it all with healthy scepticism, however, the associations made between extracts from the Qu'ran and aspects of the universe seem rather contrived.

 

The problem is these extracts are being referred to as being very metaphorical ways of describing how the universe works.

But it is the fact that they are being used a metaphors which makes it very easy to apply them to lots of things.

 

Another problem is why a God who supposedly wishes to convey useful information to humans would wish to be so highly metaphorical when there is no requirement to do so. Remember, with Allah we are talking about a supposedly highly intelligent, if not the most intelligent being. His supposed attempts at communication in this way do not convey a great deal of intelligence. (And the same can be said in the problem of him not conveying his teachings well enough to present discord between Muslims and to lead to many other religions. As well as to leave us with nothing but the Qur'an to convince us. It doesn't add up)

 

One example is the layers of the atmosphere, as there are not seven discrete layers of atmosphere, admittedly from looking at Wikipedia. We have just labelled parts of the atmosphere with names depending on their constituents and characteristics as they develop and change. Although you have a thermosphere, it has something called a turbopause, which represents a change to the thermosphere's characteristics.

And the ionisphere overlaps the exosphere and thermosphere.

 

And then you have a supposed reference to plate tectonics:

"You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds."

The mountains are technically solid and they don't move like clouds. Magma is a liquid but magma is not the mountains.

 

Iron on the Earth

"…And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind...."

(The Qur'an, 57:25)

Iron was not sent down to Earth by meteors. If iron was sent DOWN to Earth from meteors, then how do we account for the supposed constituents of the Earth's core. Iron may have come from other stellar bodies but were not sent DOWN from meteors if we are to understand the Earth's formation as being a coalescesing of material under gravity.

 

Roundness of the Earth

"He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night."(The Qur'an, 39:5)

That doesn't clearly inform that the world was round. In any case, why would an intelligent God use any other term rather than just say the world is round.

 

I have taken a look at other examples, such a Relativity and Pairs in Creation, which are pretty desperate attempts at associating the Qur'an with...something and then there are orbits, which I do think is miraculous if the people of the Middle East knew this then.

[Chinahand]

&roid, welcome to the forums - are you based on the Island, or have you found us from further afield?

 

Anyway I hope you enjoy our VERY rough and tumble forums - be warned, we are lightly moderated and there are very opinonated people who post here and they may not be particularly polite!

 

Its great to hear the opinion of a Muslim - I've had very little opportunity to understand your beliefs, and as you say your religion has a bad press in the west with terrorism, stonings, mutilation and intolerence towards apostates and believers in other faiths being at the forefront of news coverage.

 

Concerning your comments - I feel great awe when looking at nature and the night sky - I'm a keen amateur astonomer and find the absolute insigificance of the earth and sun in the myriad galaxies trully humbling. I have no idea how it came into being, but see no reason to fill it with any intelligence who would want to write a book of rules for us, and punish our behaviour.

 

I presume you believe in judgement and some form of afterlife with heaven and hell - that man is special, priveledged above the rest of nature. Why? I see no evidence for these beliefs whatsoever and they seem very much based on humanity's fear of death and desire for some equilization of a very unequal and unjust world.

 

Do you believe in evolution? The contingent, error strewn history of life found in our, and every other living creatures, DNA very strongly shows that humans are in no way unique. Nature is indifferent, brutal, red in tooth and claw and humanity along with the rest of life has to face plagues, famines, preditors, and natural disasters to live. A loving God seems very absent in all this - though then again is the Muslim God a loving God, or a demanding one?

 

I love the way you say you believe in all the Abrahmic religions - should a jewish temple be built on the Temple Mount? Is Jesus the way, the truth, and the life, and does no one go to the Father except through him. If you are a conventional Muslim then I don't think you believe these things at all. Your religion may have exapted these older beliefs to give it credibility, but in adopting parts of them it also left much behind to the extent followers of those religions reject your interpretations as strongly as you reject theirs - why are your later reinterpretations any more valid than their earlier ones?

 

I know very little about the Koran - I've read some of the shorter chapters - I started at the back! But didn't get too far - it was massively obsessed with heaven, hell and judgement. I am certain you can find verses which can be interpreted as being consistent with modern science - but could you give me a prediction based on the Koran of future scientific discoveries? Or is the Koran silent on future progress in science? What does it say about the evolution of DNA?

 

I find none of the Abrahamic holy books contain anything other than poetic allegory which provides very little insight into the physical nature of this world. For me, I find that totally unsuprising, but you think it is the infallible word of God. I cannot comprehend that, in the same way you cannot comprehend my lack of belief in a creator - c'est la vivre.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Chinahand, I would be interested to know what your thoughts were on the website that &roid has referred to.

[Chinahand]

Desperate cherry picking of obscure language!

[&roid]

@ LDV : ( sorry can't quote on my phone ):

 

 

Does a brief look make you capable of making such strong judgements?

Yes, I put that site as an example, but for someone who is really looking for knowledge, it would take you weeks, maybe months before going to the conclusions ( or is your only goal to disprove God's existence?)

 

One question I hope you will answer: if someone proved to you that the Quran ( or as you called it the ancient book ) does include true scientific facts that no one back then would ever known about, would that make you admit that's the Quran is nothing but God's word ?