Christian Adoption

[Evil Goblin]

You're all as mental as each other.

My one consolation is that with LDV and Chinahand I'm in good company!

[John Wright]

Is there not a topic where, given half a chance, LDV and others will sidetrack or derail and argue insoluble questions such as is there or is there not a God.

 

God is a belief in a faith system, the words belief and faith are the clue, you can neither prove or disprove a belief or faith. It is not a scientific fact capable of proof or disproof.

 

LDV stop allowing others to wind you up, stop swallowing the bait and stop rising to the challenge. It ruins and de rails so many worthwhile and otherwise interesting topics.

 

Frankly its like a play ground how high can I piss competition between very snmall boys. Its got very boring and proves nothing at all, and the rest of us are suffering.

 

We have heard it all before.

 

Try and post anything remotely relevant to the topic and it is lost in a sea of quotes and abuse and rhetoric which are no longer anything to do with the actual topic.

 

Go create your own topic "Does God exist, or not, and can I prove it". Play in there, we all promise to steer clear.

[Evil Goblin]

JW - this is a most unfair criticism. The thread proceeded logically from it's original subject to further relevant matters which arose from that original subject. To say we have hijacked the thread is unreasonable. OK, we might have recognised that a separate thread would be justified but that is a far cry from saying that, in effect, we have abused this thread, which we haven't. As far as I can see, there has been no deliberate winding-up between LDV, Chinahand and myself plus some others - just a civilised discussion. So, perhaps for a change, it hasn't been a pissing competition at all - just a very interesting debate.

[Declan]

I preferred the debate post derail.

[ScotsAlan]

New thread started :-)

 

Under General chat. This may finally wear out LDV's C and V keys on his pc.....

 

I can see John's point.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

John, I think you ought to look at your first post on this thread where you began questioning or pondering on the meaning associated with particular parts of the Bible. Whereas you began by questioning the justification for such beliefs by the inconsistency by which they have been applied, I have questioned their justification on the basis of whether there is evidence with which to hold those beliefs. Is that much different?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

No, I have not given a definition of God - difficult for me to explain but the nearest I can come to it is that it is something arising in our minds out of our innate nature (not some physical/metaphysical being). Thus my concept of God is that which arises from within, not without. I do not, therefore, seek any proof of the existence of some external God.

But your inability to define makes me wonder whether you have any coherent idea of what it is you think is true. I don't really know what you're talking about.

 

 

As I've said before - faith.

But as I have said, that answer just means that a person has not got a good reason for believing or claiming to know it, they just think it is the case. It's like someone saying "I know, because I know, because I know".

Though in every other aspect of how we learn about ourselves and our world, we have a reason behind our claims to know.

 

If someone believes there is an intelligent being then that being must exist somewhere and must manifest in a particular manner. But where and how?

[Evil Goblin]

But your inability to define makes me wonder whether you have any coherent idea of what it is you think is true. I don't really know what you're talking about.

OK - try this. My concept of God is an inner force emanating from my innate nature. This force is what directs me in considering my moral/ethical views. Perhaps this is what the Eastern traditions call "experiental knowledge" rather then "rational knowledge" and hence incapable of expression in language.

 

But as I have said, that answer just means that a person has not got a good reason for believing or claiming to know it, they just think it is the case. If someone believes there is an intelligent being then that being must exist somewhere and must manifest in a particular manner. But where and how?

I can only repeat what I have said before - you have a different idea of what constitutes valid evidence than they do. I'm afraid that's it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I can only repeat what I have said before - you have a different idea of what constitutes valid evidence than they do. I'm afraid that's it.

 

It's not that we have a different idea of what constitutes evidence. You have no interest in evidence.

 

You have mentioned why people are inclined to want to believe something that provides comfort, that this desire is strong and even possibly innate, and that what people lead themselves to believe seems real to them - but none of that touches upon evidence. Just because something thinks something to be the case doesn't mean that it is, even if they feel certain of it.

[Evil Goblin]

LDV - I have made it clear to you that, given my concept of God, I have no need to see evidence in the outside world. My God is something within me arising out of the depths of my mind and being. You do not seem to understand this.

 

As for your second paragraph, I have answered this before but again it doesn't seem that you are able to grasp the point. Or are you now trying to wind me up?

[ScotsAlan]

As I've said before - faith.But as I have said, that answer just means that a person has not got a good reason for believing or claiming to know it, they just think it is the case. It's like someone saying "I know, because I know, because I know".

Though in every other aspect of how we learn about ourselves and our world, we have a reason behind our claims to know.

 

If someone believes there is an intelligent being then that being must exist somewhere and must manifest in a particular manner. But where and how?

 

That does not make sense. the whole point of faith is that evidence is not required. LDV, are you not just trying to prove the monkey, typewriter, Shakespeare scenario? The idea that if you put enough words together randomly you will eventually come up with a life changing phrase.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV - I have made it clear to you that, given my concept of God, I have no need to see evidence in the outside world. My God is something within me arising out of the depths of my mind and being. You do not seem to understand this.

I think I could try. But the problem is that you think your beliefs are all one and the same as compared with others theists views, based on how you have answered my questions.

 

If your God is simply some innate 'force' (though I would question what you mean by force) that directs you in your views or thoughts etc., then it's hardly like a God at all. Curious as to why you use the term.

 

In any case, I could similarly have a belief where my thoughts and actions are the result of some sort of cosmic string-pulling by aliens who exist in another dimension, of which the strings do not manifest in this reality. Or that there is an entity within me that governs certain actions.

 

Such claims are only relevant to me. They do not relate to the world I share with others. As such they are very different from common theist claims. They can't be demonstrated to others, because in the case of the aliens and their 'strings', they do not manifest in the same dimension. But the question is...

 

...how did you come to this understanding? I also understand what a force is, but what creates this force? It's a particular view or understanding you have taken but what is your reasoning behind it?

 

As for your second paragraph, I have answered this before but again it doesn't seem that you are able to grasp the point. Or are you now trying to wind me up?

Not at all. But we do seem to be going round in circles. I think the impasse we're reaching is that you think a person's perspection and interpretation of their world constitutes what exists.

I think also that some of the problem here stems from the fact that your 'God' is not one that manifests in our shared world. Presumably, you are not saying that I have this 'God' or I have my own God, but just don't know it. But I have been talking about theist claims where people talk of manifestation in the real world, such as there being a creator God or loving and caring God that exists for all.

[Evil Goblin]

But the problem is that you think your beliefs are all one and the same as compared with others theists views, based on how you have answered my questions.

I thought it was clear that I accepted that my notion of God was a personal one and not the same as the general view. At the same time I have argued that those who hold the traditional view see evidence for God where you (and I) do not and hence their "reality" is different to yours.

 

If your God is simply some innate 'force' (though I would question what you mean by force) that directs you in your views or thoughts etc., then it's hardly like a God at all. Curious as to why you use the term.

Because it is what drives my moral and ethical thought. Your picture of a God is just much more narrow than mine.

 

In any case, I could similarly have a belief where my thoughts and actions are the result of some sort of cosmic string-pulling by aliens who exist in another dimension, of which the strings do not manifest in this reality. Or that there is an entity within me that governs certain actions.

You either do not understand or are being silly. I do not say that my "internal God" is supernatural - it arises from the natural construction of my mind and body.

 

But the question is... ...how did you come to this understanding?

Years of study and thinking through it all.

 

If my God manifests in the world it is through my actions. You do not seem to have any notion whatever of a God of whatever sort. You are also predicating that God must fit the traditional picture of the Creator who can come down and throw thunderbolts around - my perception obviously doesn't fit with this.

 

As for "a person's perspection and interpretation of their world constitutes what exists.", at the level of ordinary life, yes it does. At the level of scientific explanation it may not. The definaition of "exists" depends on the level of description you are contemplating.

[Chinahand]

Evil Goblin, LDV - I think this is an interesting debate, and the fact you are continuing it seems to show you agree - I think we should move it to the Is there a God thread now - it is distracting having to jump between two threads.

 

EG, I will give some thoughts there on what you have recently posted.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would, but it would seem disjointed hopping over to a different thread, especially when the question being asked are of another quality. You (Chinahand) for instance are questioning the moral background and legitimacy of the content of scripture, whereas we are talking about evidence in general.