Christian Adoption

[La_Dolce_Vita]

What strikes me as quite amazing is Evil Goblin's understanding that such entities can be said to exist because they are believed to exist. This is 'all right' in terms of pantheism (although it means a useless God), but not for his panentheism where there are claims about the real world and for others who have very different beliefs.

[Evil Goblin]

LDV/China - I am pushed for time at the minute and will respond more fully as and when time permits. I would just say, at present, that we have naturally ended up in a situation where it is logical to start asking the question - "What is Reality?". Perhaps you'd care to put up your thoughts?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would say an understanding of what is in our world based on what exists. Existence being what manifests in that world.

[Evil Goblin]

Sorry, LDV, but the subject of "reality" is MUCH more complex than that!

[Evil Goblin]

Just a quick question, LDV - do colours exist?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would say not. There are just terms used to reflect how our eyes perceive light coming off objects.

[ScotsAlan]

Erm. To answer LDV's question many pages back.... Yes I do believe.

 

So why do I believe?

 

Because when we have nothing left, when we can't understand why bad things are happening, our natural instinct is to pray.

 

This thread reminds me of the "Great thought" scene in Hitchhikers. When the prophets complained of being put out of a job..........

 

I have prayed for friends, for family, and strangers. And I don't mean head down in front of a cross stuff. I mean to spend a moment of time thinking, to really honestly think of them. hope for them... and ultimately pray for them. To ask God to help them.

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

And I have known friends who have prayed for me. And, you know, just sometimes prayers are answered. Not all the time of course, otherwise everyone would be praying and there would be no problems. This past week, a good Muslim friend prayed for my Buddhist wife, I prayed, to the same God (But yup I am Christian), her family prayed to Buddha.

 

It's all the same God.

 

And our prayers so far have been answered :-)

 

It's all a bit strange in a way. Because earlier this year, I knelt and prayed in front of a Buddhist Icon, to say a prayer for my Muslim friend. She was not happy of course, because under her law I should be put to death (same as old testament) But hey, my prayer was humble and unimportant, but it was answered :-)

 

I too was uneasy about praying to an Icon. But is the cross not an Icon?

 

We can debate religion for eternity, inventing bigger and bigger words to justify our opinion.

 

We are so lucky, being able to talk about it. To not have survival as number 1.

 

EB

 

Edit to add:

 

I need to Wiki Ghandi, and not just go by the film.....

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Are you serious? I need to know before responding. Your comment about natural instinct being to pray and thinking Ghandi is perfect is making me wonder. Sorry.

[ScotsAlan]

Are you serious? I need to know before responding. Your comment about natural instinct being to pray and thinking Ghandi is perfect is making me wonder. Sorry.

 

Yup. I am serious.

 

I don't understand why you object to my beliefs LDV.

 

I have been following this forum for years, and all you seem to do is disagree with people. But often I agree with what you write.

 

But your target of a non religious, siting under a tree drinking tea while talking philosophy utopia does not actually exist.....

 

And yes LDV, 30 years from now,as you climb the steps to the bathroom to go for a dump, your left arm goes limp, your chest explodes inside, will you be saying "fuck you" or "Oh shit"?

 

Edit to add, i will be saying "Fuck!!!"

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Erm. To answer LDV's question many pages back.... Yes I do believe.

 

So why do I believe?

 

Because when we have nothing left, when we can't understand why bad things are happening, our natural instinct is to pray.

Firstly, the natural instinct is not to pray. Many people pray who are religious and many may make a prayer on the off-chance of their being any worth in it, but those who do so when they are not religious are doing so as a result of the religious thinking that is prevalent in society.

Unless I have witnessed other people praying and understoof what they are doing, it would not come naturally to me or to anyone else.

 

In any case, that people pray should be no cause to believe. Prayers itself does not provide evidence of anything that listens or answers to your prayers.

 

 

This thread reminds me of the "Great thought" scene in Hitchhikers. When the prophets complained of being put out of a job..........

I have prayed for friends, for family, and strangers. And I don't mean head down in front of a cross stuff. I mean to spend a moment of time thinking, to really honestly think of them. hope for them... and ultimately pray for them. To ask God to help them.

Is that a bad thing?

It sounds to me like wasted moments if you don't have evidence of anything listening to a prayer, unless such action just brings you some happiness. It is bad when people pray for good times to come, or pray to God so that they will pass an exam, or get a job, etc.

And I have known friends who have prayed for me. And, you know, just sometimes prayers are answered.

I have to remain thoroughly sceptical. Could what have been prayed for just happened anyway? How many prayers remained unanswered? There is no evidence that prayers are answered nor answered by a God.

 

It's all the same God.

You think Buddhists pray and worship the same God? And what about the Hindus or other non-Abrahamic religions?

 

And our prayers so far have been answered :-)

You'd need to tell me what it was your prayed for before I any comment can be offered. If you prayed for a child and your wife or girlfriend got pregnant then I wouldn't think anything of it. If you prayed for £100k to be deposited in your bank account then you might be on to something. But can it happen again?

 

It's all a bit strange in a way. Because earlier this year, I knelt and prayed in front of a Buddhist Icon, to say a prayer for my Muslim friend. She was not happy of course, because under her law I should be put to death (same as old testament) But hey, my prayer was humble and unimportant, but it was answered :-)

I'm going to pray for rain in the week. I'll let you know how I get on.

 

I too was uneasy about praying to an Icon. But is the cross not an Icon?

Probably.

We can debate religion for eternity, inventing bigger and bigger words to justify our opinion.

No, we don't need bigger words. Just simply words in the context of reason and logic.

We are so lucky, being able to talk about it. To not have survival as number 1.

Survival is number one. We can just talk about other things as well.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't understand why you object to my beliefs LDV.

I don't know what your beliefs are. All you have said is that you have prayed lots of times and they have come true so that you are a believer in something.

[ScotsAlan]

You win LDV :-)

 

I can't argue with what you say. Basically, because I can present no evidence.

 

And yes, I know the history of religion, and it's use to put fear into the masses.

 

But, while you probably think of me as a nutter , a fanatic, a bible basher, a sheep following the heard......... so on and so on.....

 

I think you are also a radical. An anti religious extremist even. A person unwilling to accept the beliefs and opinion of others.

 

My friends and family, of different beliefs, cultures and continents, can agree to disagree on some things. But ultimately, we think of, and pray for each other. And contary to what the reference books or wiki says we should believe, myself and my friends are united in our belief that there is only one God.

 

So you say the religious couple should not be able to foster kids, because they will attempt to brainwash them with silly ideas of love and charity.

 

I was brought up in an atheist household.

 

I would much rather see foster kids in a loving home, rather than an extreamist atheist home.

[ScotsAlan]

I don't understand why you object to my beliefs LDV.

I don't know what your beliefs are. All you have said is that you have prayed lots of times and they have come true so that you are a believer in something.

 

God, obviously :-)

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But, while you probably think of me as a nutter , a fanatic, a bible basher, a sheep following the heard......... so on and so on.....

 

I think you are also a radical. An anti religious extremist even. A person unwilling to accept the beliefs and opinion of others.

Not saying I am always logical, but in respect of this matter, I think you have a poor sense of logic and muddled thinking if you think a recourse to prayer indicates a good reason to believe.

 

I would suppose my political views are politically radical. But when you talk about religion, I am not so sure you can apply the term radical. Maybe extremist is the proper term, but only because most people have some sort of belief in the supernatural.

 

But do you consider yourself to be extreme because you don't believe in vampires, Father Christmas, or Manx Little People, for example?

 

Also, I am unwilling to accept beliefs in the sense of agreeing that they make sense, when they don't. But I can agree that people HAVE such beliefs.

As for accepting others opinions, I presume you mean something else, as I have to recognise someone's elses opinions. I don't have to agree with them though, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

 

...myself and my friends are united in our belief that there is only one God.

But presumably without a good reason to believe this, judging from your answer. You don't need reference books or wikipedia. Just recognise that to think something is true, you need to have something that indicates that this is the case.

[Evil Goblin]

To put my twopenn'orth in on prayer - it can (but doesn't necessarily) work. The important factor is belief - if you truly believe then you may get a positive outcome. Faith healers have what success they get because the people "cured" believe they will be cured. The success of prayer doesn't come from God but rather than the psychological effects and subsequent actions in the body. So, if you do not truly believe prayer won't do much good.