Louis Theroux And The Phelps Family

[spook]

But our morals do not come from Christianity in relation to theft and murder.

 

Yes they do. At least from what was established as the code of conduct needed for a disparate group to survive and thrive in a hostile environment. It was that morality entwined with our laws that prohibit theft and murder. There are tribes of people in the world who have had no such exposure for whom theft is a legitimate means of acquisition and murder a means of enforcing their will on others even to the extent of building into their legal system a means of resolving a murder by the paying of “Blood Money”.

 

As for sexual morality, that has been dealt with in lots of other threads and I grant that you are partially correct. But the morality of Christianity in this respect is damaging to society.

 

Or could it be that the “permissive” society that has now in so many respects and affects so many people is falling apart with the absence of morality and the embracing of hedonistic promiscuity is to blame.

 

Let's be clear, I'm not addressing same sex relationships which actually ceased to be so explicitly proscribed some time during the era during which “The Prophets” were written but the casual disconnection between a close enduring bond between two people in which sex is an appropriate and usually an essential component, but the “one night stand” mentality.

 

It's not for non-Christians to work out who the correct Christians are. You all seem to have all sorts of justifications.

Although I appreciate that paedophilia is not a teaching of the Bible, the degree of this sort of abuse in the Catholic, Methodist, and Baptist churches shows a certain level of hypocrisy (and sexual repression).

 

Again the word “church” comes to the fore. Churches mostly use some part of Christianity as a foundation, some more than others, but that does NOT mean that a Christian church represents Christianity, in fact usually the opposite, and especially so in the case of the Roman Catholicism.

 

As for Baptists, what are Baptists? The use of the name in the form that you have used it is grossly imprecise, especially in the case of the US Southern Baptist churches where the only justification for the name is that the church engages in total immersion in water for entry to the congregation as a church member, and total absence of immersion in Christian teaching and practice.

[Mr. Sausages]

Nature.

 

We steal from somebody, we risk them and their family/pack/clan seeking revenge.

 

We murder somebody, we risk their family/pack/clan seeking revenge.

 

We're sexually promiscuous, we risk retribution from others.

 

Our family/pack/clan don't condone our misdemenours because they don't want to have to deal with other families/packs/clans seeking retribution.

[Evil Goblin]

That's a very sensible post, Sausages. But it could be that religious strictures on such things originated from precisely these considerations (I'm actually pretty sure they did).

[Mr. Sausages]

If we were made of gas and couldn't meet violent ends I'm sure our insticts (and morals) would be different. But we're just animals, and lions aren't thinking of Jesus when they make sure they don't get caught impregnating a lioness from another pride.

[Lonan3]

"Suppose that human propensities to cooperate or defect are heritable: some people are innately more cooperative, others less so. In this respect moral aptitude would simply be like almost all other mental traits studied to date. Among traits with documented heritability, those closest to moral aptitude are empathy with the distress of others and certain processes of attachment between infants and their caregivers. To the hereditability of moral aptitude add the abundant evidence of history that cooperative individuals generally survive longer and leave more offspring. Following that reasoning, in the course of evolutionary history genes predisposing people toward cooperative behavior would have come to predominate in the human population as a whole.

Such a process repeated through thousands of generations inevitably gave rise to moral sentiments. With the exception of psychopaths (if any truly exist), every person vividly experiences these instincts variously as conscience, self- respect, remorse, empathy, shame, humility, and moral outrage. They bias cultural evolution toward the conventions that express the universal moral codes of honor, patriotism, altruism, justice, compassion, mercy, and redemption."

 

The Biological Basis of Morality Edward O. Wilson 1998

[Evil Goblin]

If we were made of gas and couldn't meet violent ends I'm sure our insticts (and morals) would be different. But we're just animals, and lions aren't thinking of Jesus when they make sure they don't get caught impregnating a lioness from another pride.

What if we were flammable gas and there were people with matches around? Re the lions, reminds me of the joke about the burglar, the parrot and "Jesus is watching you".

[Freggyragh]

We know from the ‘hambeast’ debacle on another thread that Spook has an unusual view of the world. Now lets look at his claim:

 

“That (Christian) civilisation and most of its laws are based on Biblical principles of prohibition of certain acts which, if they were not prohibited, would see our civilisation collapse.

 

Imagine if there had been no prohibition on theft, on killing, on lying, on sexual immorality. Imagine if there was no command to not be covetous of what others had, and I deliberately use the word covetous because it goes so far beyond being a bit envious or jealous. Imagine of there was not a commandment to take heed of your parents and look after them in their old age. What would our civilisation look like today?”

 

To put such claims to the test we have to compare traditionally Christian countries with countries where Christianity has had little or no influence. The best control would therefore be traditionally Buddhist or Animist countries.

 

I don’t know how we can measure covetousness, and almost any way you look at it, it is obvious that predominantley Buddhist and Confucian countries care better for their elderly than Christian countries. The other claims also come across as absurd when the facts are considered.

 

Theft:

 

Internationally the top ten lowest rates for robbery are, in order, Qatar (Muslim), Yemen (Muslim), Thailand (Buddhist); Azerbaijan (Muslim) Saudi Arabia (Muslim), Turkey (Muslim), India (Hindu/Muslim/Sikh/Buddhist/Animist), Japan (Buddhist/Animist), Armenia (Armenian Orthodox Christian) and Georgia (Georgian Orthodox Christian). The top twenty-five countries with the highest rates are all traditionally Christianity dominated (Catholic and Protestant).

 

Killing:

 

Top ten countries with lowest murder rates; Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Hong Kong, Greece, Indonesia, Switzerland, Ireland, Norway, Denmark. Christian Countries 5/10.

 

Top ten highest murder rates; Columbia, South Africa, Jamaica, Venezuela, Russia, Mexico, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus. Christian Countries 10/10.

 

Countries bombed, occupied or invaded by Christian nations in the last fifty years, not including internal civil conflicts, eg; Northern Ireland: Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bolivia, Bosnia, Cambodia, Chechnya, Columbia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cuba, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Eritrea, Georgia, Grenada, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kenya, Liberia, Libya, Lakota Nation, Laos, Lebanon, Nicaragua, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Philippines, Libya, Liberia, Serbia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam, Yemen. (I know I've missed out many more – but you get the idea.)

 

Countries bombed, occupied or invaded by Buddhist nations in the last fifty years; Non (but civil conflict in Sri Lanka and Tibet).

 

Sectarian conflicts involving Christians; Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia.

Sectarian conflicts involving Buddhists; None.

 

Lying:

 

Hard to measure, but according to Transparency International’s Perceptions of Corruption league table the top twenty least corrupt countries are indeed predominantley Christian – although both Singapore and Japan rank higher than either the UK or US.

 

Sexual Immorality:

 

Hard to measure, but teenage pregnancies and divorce rates might give an indication of what Spook might call sexual immorality. According to Unicef the top two highest rates of teenage pregnancy for rich countries are in the US (52.1 per 1,000) and UK (30.8 per 1,000). The lowest two are Japan (4.6 per 1,000) and Korea (2.9 per 1,000). Although less dramatic, comparison of divorce rates produces similar results.

 

 

To sum up, it seems to me that the greater the exposure to Christianity the greater the tendency towards theft, killing, lying and sexual immorality.

[spook]

We know from the ‘hambeast’ debacle on another thread that Spook has an unusual view of the world. Now lets look at his claim:

 

“That (Christian) civilisation and most of its laws are based on Biblical principles of prohibition of certain acts which, if they were not prohibited, would see our civilisation collapse.

 

Imagine if there had been no prohibition on theft, on killing, on lying, on sexual immorality. Imagine if there was no command to not be covetous of what others had, and I deliberately use the word covetous because it goes so far beyond being a bit envious or jealous. Imagine of there was not a commandment to take heed of your parents and look after them in their old age. What would our civilisation look like today?”

 

To put such claims to the test we have to compare traditionally Christian countries with countries where Christianity has had little or no influence. The best control would therefore be traditionally Buddhist or Animist countries.

 

I don’t know how we can measure covetousness, and almost any way you look at it, it is obvious that predominantley Buddhist and Confucian countries care better for their elderly than Christian countries. The other claims also come across as absurd when the facts are considered.

 

Theft:

 

Internationally the top ten lowest rates for robbery are, in order, Qatar (Muslim), Yemen (Muslim), Thailand (Buddhist); Azerbaijan (Muslim) Saudi Arabia (Muslim), Turkey (Muslim), India (Hindu/Muslim/Sikh/Buddhist/Animist), Japan (Buddhist/Animist), Armenia (Armenian Orthodox Christian) and Georgia (Georgian Orthodox Christian). The top twenty-five countries with the highest rates are all traditionally Christianity dominated (Catholic and Protestant).

 

Killing:

 

Top ten countries with lowest murder rates; Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Hong Kong, Greece, Indonesia, Switzerland, Ireland, Norway, Denmark. Christian Countries 5/10.

 

Top ten highest murder rates; Columbia, South Africa, Jamaica, Venezuela, Russia, Mexico, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus. Christian Countries 10/10.

 

Countries bombed, occupied or invaded by Christian nations in the last fifty years, not including internal civil conflicts, eg; Northern Ireland: Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bolivia, Bosnia, Cambodia, Chechnya, Columbia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cuba, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Eritrea, Georgia, Grenada, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kenya, Liberia, Libya, Lakota Nation, Laos, Lebanon, Nicaragua, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Philippines, Libya, Liberia, Serbia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam, Yemen. (I know I've missed out many more – but you get the idea.)

 

Countries bombed, occupied or invaded by Buddhist nations in the last fifty years; Non (but civil conflict in Sri Lanka and Tibet).

 

Sectarian conflicts involving Christians; Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia.

Sectarian conflicts involving Buddhists; None.

 

Lying:

 

Hard to measure, but according to Transparency International’s Perceptions of Corruption league table the top twenty least corrupt countries are indeed predominantley Christian – although both Singapore and Japan rank higher than either the UK or US.

 

Sexual Immorality:

 

Hard to measure, but teenage pregnancies and divorce rates might give an indication of what Spook might call sexual immorality. According to Unicef the top two highest rates of teenage pregnancy for rich countries are in the US (52.1 per 1,000) and UK (30.8 per 1,000). The lowest two are Japan (4.6 per 1,000) and Korea (2.9 per 1,000). Although less dramatic, comparison of divorce rates produces similar results.

 

 

To sum up, it seems to me that the greater the exposure to Christianity the greater the tendency towards theft, killing, lying and sexual immorality.

 

 

Again the confusion between so called Christian churches and ther members, and true Christians such as those with Brethren roots.

 

After all, a dog may live in a stable but that doesn't make it a horse.

[Mr. Sausages]

As "true Christians" appear to be so few, it does make your suggestion that they are to thank for our morals seem very unlikely.

[immortalpuppet]

[Snaipyr]

'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens is a brilliant read and should be put on the national curriculum! The recurring theme is that the concept of an omniscient God has profoundly damaged humanity and religion has poisoned everything.

[Freggyragh]

 

 

Again the confusion between so called Christian churches and ther members, and true Christians such as those with Brethren roots.

 

After all, a dog may live in a stable but that doesn't make it a horse.

 

OK Spook, help us clear up this confusion, can you let us know what name or names this group or groups of 'true Christians' go by. (Or is that going to be as difficult for you as letting us know how to detect a 'hambeast'?)

[Freggyragh]

 

 

Again the confusion between so called Christian churches and ther members, and true Christians such as those with Brethren roots.

 

After all, a dog may live in a stable but that doesn't make it a horse.

 

Fair point, but if a dog that lives in a stable looks like a horse, behaves like a horse, sounds like a horse, smells like a horse, eats like a horse, sleeps like a horse, has hooves, a mane and a big set of horses teeth - then chances are its a horse.

[spook]

 

 

 

OK Spook, help us clear up this confusion, can you let us know what name or names this group or groups of 'true Christians' go by. (Or is that going to be as difficult for you as letting us know how to detect a 'hambeast'?)

 

A good start is to Google Anabaptist.

[Keith]

So what you appear to be saying is that if someone says they are Christian, believes in 'God' and 'Jesus', goes to a Christian church, is possibly even a priest or minister, believes in 'heaven' and probably 'hell' but does 'bad things', such as being a paedophile priest, then they are not actually "Christian"?

 

And if you are an atheist who lives a good life, doesn't break the law, has high moral standards, then they are wrong, and you are only 'good' because of Christians influencing them?

 

And Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus et-al are also wrong because only your lot are right?