Snp First-Ever Majority

[VinnieK]

Fatshaft I can only agree with Barry (!) London and the South-East subsidise the rest of the UK. To think that Wales and Scotland could exist on their own is fanciful to say the least.

 

The comparison with London is surely flawed. It's all very well to say that London makes X amount, but it has to be recognised that although a large proportion of London's wealth is based on international finance, a fair chunk of that money is dependent on the economic activity of the regions. Would London be quite so wealthy without the rest of the UK to sell its media and professional services to, not to mention also being dependent on the regions for much of its professional staff?

 

In general it makes very little sense to say that the capital of any country is subsidising the rest of it, because the interaction and connections between the two are so complex and act on all levels: economic, social, and political.

 

As for the South East, well that's a bit of a blag right there: the South East is overall prosperous simply because of its proximity to London and desirability, rather than having any inherent advantage (apart, of course, from access to major ports) That this is so is immediate from the fact that further from London a great deal of Kent, for instance, is absolutely dirt poor and generally deprived (i.e. Margate/Ramsgate). The prosporous bits are basically like a big fat tick attached into London's veins , and deserve to be taken as a suburb of London when talking about economic comparisons.

 

For what it's worth, the per capita Gross Value Added figure (the value of goods and services produced in a region) for Scotland isn't much off that for England, and is even closer to that of the UK as a whole (a difference of about four or five percentage points). Make of that what you will, but in either case of the argument, pro or anti-independence, surely the financial state of a region right now isn't a terribly good measure of that region's future prospects? You could argue that Scotland, or even Wales, benefits from its association with the UK and London in having a reasonably sized domestic market to interact with. Those for independence, however, could cast into doubt the idea that this market would necessarily vanish after independence, and might further advance the point of view that they may benefit from breaking free of the UK's incredibly centralized political and economic structure.

[Barrie Stevens]

"Commentators are now saying that an independent Scotland would have to pay its share of the UK Government Debt of £1 trillion.

 

This would mean Scotland having to find £280 billion or £56,000 for each Scot who chose to stay north of the border rather than move to England." Barry

 

Barry I try really hard not to read your bullshit but Scotland has 8% of UK population and if we accept UK Debt of £1 trillion then the true figures are 80 billion and £15400 per person.I appreciate your prowess with a duster but when it comes to maths "you really must do better !"

 

The figures I quote are widely used throughout the printed media, BBC Radio 4, World Service and likewise in the House of Commons....I don't make it up you know...

[Barrie Stevens]

Barrie thanks for your comments. Clearly a complex issue.

 

What was perhaps confusing me was that I assumed that the Scots, through the taxation system, were currently paying an appropriately proportionate contribution towards the total UK National Debt and that this would therefore remain at a similar contribution level post independence (if it happened). If the Scottish taxpayer liability increased after independence does this imply that the current contribution level is not proportionate and that other taxpayers outside of Scotland are subsidising the Scots? Or is it that because the National Debt is an accumulating debt that fundamentally never gets repaid that it would only be on independence that the Scots would be asked for a lump sum repayment for their portion? I could imagine some interesting negotiations around this point not only on the quantum but also on the method and timescale of payment.

 

I would stick with my core thought that in the end these matters are decided more by hip pocket nerves than high politics - if it looks as if it is going to be financially unattractive the voters won't support independence and the politicians won'y risk putting the question.

 

The National Debt is a rather nebulous concept more related to economics and the world as seen through the UK Treasury rather than shall we say a set of account books.

 

We did not have an official National Debt (we being UK) until they formed the Bank of England in 16 hundred tiddly whatzit...The Bank of England was formed for the purposes of raising National Debt or loans in order to refurbish the Royal Navy after a humiliating defeat at Chatham when the ill-equipped British ships and crews were destroyed or captured by the Dutch Navy!

 

In other words, the Government of the day set up a bank and borrowed money from the then private shareholders and the cost of servicing and/or repaying the loans was ultimately paid by the taxpayer (and one supposes any other income such as the odd colonial windfall of new territories, looted diamonds, art works, ships captured as war prizes etc)

 

The Bank of England was nationalised in 1949.

 

Since then (the formation of the bank of England) we have had a record showing roughly what the Government spends and borrows as opposed to what it has coming in and likewise future trends for the same going foward generations.

 

Basically, the National Debt goes up and then now and again down a bit, like they are trying to do now, they do something about it by (a) cuts in spending (b) more taxes (hurrah!).

 

Margaret Thatcher insisted on paying off a lot of loans and debt with the early North Sea Oil money but the UK is still living on Debt.

 

So the country runs in the Red like someone living off an overdraft or using their Barclay Card to pay the mortgage. ie you never actually clear it and pay huge interest in the meantime. What is the interest on debt and borrowings for the UK today? They say the interest is £120 million a day in respect of various loans and borrowings and tax revenue shortfall both now and as projected.

 

So Scotland benefits from the National Debt and for the future commitments based on such debt. One cannot, except notionally, say that each person has an account in their name with "National Debt" writ large!It is all about general revenue.

 

On the other hand, if Scotland were to leave the UK then its taxpayers would no longer be directly contributing to the UK national kitty (like the Isle of Man) and likewise have no liability in this respect as they would be outside of the UK but still enjoy such as the infrastructure paid for through Debt etc.

 

Naturally, if one leaves the Union of the UK, one as a country and by extension a taxpaying community, must pay something by way of an acceptable sum or else the reduced UK tax-base would be paying for Scotland's portion of the Debt and the Scots would literally get away..."Scot Free!".

 

Various sources have apportioned Scotland's population to its notional share of the UK Debt and arrived at the figures given in earlier posts.

 

So you are right. The National Debt rarely gets paid off and the taxpayers service it like a credit card where you hardly ever reduce the outstanding sum and thus have a crippling APR to meet.

 

As I said in the earlier posts, the Irish Free State was relieved from its share of the UK National Debt in 1925 but still had to buy out the infrastructure at a bargain price of £5 million ....but which was a lot for a poor country in those days.

 

The Isle of Man is not allowed by the UK to have a National Debt because, although the UK is ultimately responsible by way of UK Sovereign Risk, there is no political representation in the Keys or Commons in this regard. This creates a fundamental lacuna in the "no taxation without representation" principle....IOM Govt departments have an existence in law and can borrow.

[Barrie Stevens]

Fatshaft I can only agree with Barry (!) London and the South-East subsidise the rest of the UK. To think that Wales and Scotland could exist on their own is fanciful to say the least.

 

The comparison with London is surely flawed. It's all very well to say that London makes X amount, but it has to be recognised that although a large proportion of London's wealth is based on international finance, a fair chunk of that money is dependent on the economic activity of the regions. Would London be quite so wealthy without the rest of the UK to sell its media and professional services to, not to mention also being dependent on the regions for much of its professional staff?

 

In general it makes very little sense to say that the capital of any country is subsidising the rest of it, because the interaction and connections between the two are so complex and act on all levels: economic, social, and political.

 

As for the South East, well that's a bit of a blag right there: the South East is overall prosperous simply because of its proximity to London and desirability, rather than having any inherent advantage (apart, of course, from access to major ports) That this is so is immediate from the fact that further from London a great deal of Kent, for instance, is absolutely dirt poor and generally deprived (i.e. Margate/Ramsgate). The prosporous bits are basically like a big fat tick attached into London's veins , and deserve to be taken as a suburb of London when talking about economic comparisons.

 

For what it's worth, the per capita Gross Value Added figure (the value of goods and services produced in a region) for Scotland isn't much off that for England, and is even closer to that of the UK as a whole (a difference of about four or five percentage points). Make of that what you will, but in either case of the argument, pro or anti-independence, surely the financial state of a region right now isn't a terribly good measure of that region's future prospects? You could argue that Scotland, or even Wales, benefits from its association with the UK and London in having a reasonably sized domestic market to interact with. Those for independence, however, could cast into doubt the idea that this market would necessarily vanish after independence, and might further advance the point of view that they may benefit from breaking free of the UK's incredibly centralized political and economic structure.

 

I think some have failed to grasp the way a Union works. London and the South East is a hugely heavily populated area with an enormous infrastructure but the system does not work by identifying who brings in the most. It is the Union that counts.

 

The South East is big financially because it is Big in other ways. Its resources are London and the City, its population, land values, industry (Yes! There is a lot unlike the North but not industry as we once knew it) and above all else its tax base and it is its tax base that gives it clout in this context.

 

This thread encompasses National Debt whereby Revenue all goes in the Kitty and then the regions get various Block Grants and money issuance based on needs etc.

 

The issue for Scotland arises simply because it does have the Barnett Formula worth £30 billion a year and without which the great and the good believe it would not be viable within the Union of the UK. Thus it follows that it would struggle outside of the UK.

 

Scotland's Gross Product per capita or whatever includes the money sent there via the Barnett Formula and that is why it looks reasonably good on paper. Take that away and then what? That is the elephant in the room and why Alex Salmond, as I have reported above, is back-tracking and talking about "independence" rather than Independence and has a new buzz-phrase..."A Relationship of Independence"...Not the same thing as Independence but please see above.

 

You are most certainly wrong in saying that Kent is dirt poor. It must be one of the wealthiest places on earth! Have you been round it at all? I mean you can't buy a rabbit hutch without a loan the size of the National Debt.

 

Margate and Ramsgate are like Douglas Promenade before the flats started going up ie old seaside towns now fallen due to people holidaying overseas etc.

 

They used to be to London what Morecambe/Blackpool was to the North. ("Chas n Dave" did a song about "Dahn ter Margate!") and I was taken there as a little boy! My Grandmother would not go anywhere else except Ramsgate!...But things have changed. Now they are run down....Like Ramsey and Douglas!

 

On the Isle of Man there is a tendency to be self-centered and think that (a) it is fantabulously rich and(b)rather important. It ain't! This distorts the Island's view of the UK overall. (Of course down here no one knows where the Island is other than it is possibly near the Isle of Wight)

 

I live in Essex (Which was once a country in its own right when we were all Germans)

 

It is incredibly diversified economically from the Thames Estuary Overspill areas populated by ex-Londoners ...and sadly the basis for "The Only Way is Essex" ....to modern industry, rolling open countryside and huge wealthy farming estates. It also has a surprisingly large tourist industry and daily I am confronted by racks of brochures and maps and promotions that would shame the Isle of Man equivalent (Not that that would be too difficult!)

 

Essex is the same size as Northern Ireland and the Essex coastline would stretch all the way from London to Edinburgh if unravelled!

 

I mean, it looks a lot better nick than the Isle of Man overall!

 

Frankly, I think most people here would actually want Scotland to buzz off and go independent.

 

The point I am getting at is that the English regions and counties are in the main like small rich nations in their own right (and once were.... all seven of them!)and that the Celtic fringe does seem to puff itself up and get over ambitious by comparison when really, it is better off inside the Union.

 

Scottish Independence is an issue in Scotland. Most of us think we would better off without Scotland...provided that they pay a lumpsum as their share of the UK National Debt.

[Barrie Stevens]

"Commentators are now saying that an independent Scotland would have to pay its share of the UK Government Debt of £1 trillion.

 

This would mean Scotland having to find £280 billion or £56,000 for each Scot who chose to stay north of the border rather than move to England." Barry

 

Barry I try really hard not to read your bullshit but Scotland has 8% of UK population and if we accept UK Debt of £1 trillion then the true figures are 80 billion and £15400 per person.I appreciate your prowess with a duster but when it comes to maths "you really must do better !"

 

Not my numbers old chappington! I do not make it up you know. Go figure! The subject matter is how much would Scotland need to buy out the farm?. I listen, learn, observe..and if you think it is that bad and so wrong then you come right on here now and give me an article of 500 words with your side of it!...!What do you think of Scotland breaking away?...

Barry me old office cleaner (God I wish that Government had kept those drawers locked) I am old school and why sprout 500 words when a few will do !! As regards the Sweaties, they would be mad to break away and the Grandmaster (Salmond) at the trough knows that.Seems that they just want to keep their subsidy and every now and again they will swing their Claymores and shout "North Sea Oil !!"

 

That's just about right.

 

But it must be very many years now ...getting on for ten or more....since I did contract office cleaning on the Island! I had some private jobs paying me £11 an hour cash in the hand back then but others less so....

 

It can be a quietly lucrative little racket cleaning! Never underestimate those people pushing hoovers around! They may not look much but some of them collect wads of untaxed wonga every week!

 

One old women cleaner I knew kept two horses at livery in Abbeylands!

 

By the way, cleaning is a young man's game now and even the Government was paying its cleaners over £10 an hour in the Villa Marina almost four years ago.... and which when some did ten hours a day/night and worked for other employers elsewhere....well, you can see that cleaning can make more than many a Finance Sector office hack.

 

One of the Philippino men at the Villa told me that he and his wife had saved £76,000 cash in under three years working as cleaners and carers..and they had their family on the Island.

 

But then they don't invest in the local brewery!

[SJR]

"Commentators are now saying that an independent Scotland would have to pay its share of the UK Government Debt of £1 trillion.

 

This would mean Scotland having to find £280 billion or £56,000 for each Scot who chose to stay north of the border rather than move to England." Barry

 

Barry I try really hard not to read your bullshit but Scotland has 8% of UK population and if we accept UK Debt of £1 trillion then the true figures are 80 billion and £15400 per person.I appreciate your prowess with a duster but when it comes to maths "you really must do better !"

 

Not my numbers old chappington! I do not make it up you know. Go figure! The subject matter is how much would Scotland need to buy out the farm?. I listen, learn, observe..and if you think it is that bad and so wrong then you come right on here now and give me an article of 500 words with your side of it!...!What do you think of Scotland breaking away?...

Barry me old office cleaner (God I wish that Government had kept those drawers locked) I am old school and why sprout 500 words when a few will do !! As regards the Sweaties, they would be mad to break away and the Grandmaster (Salmond) at the trough knows that.Seems that they just want to keep their subsidy and every now and again they will swing their Claymores and shout "North Sea Oil !!"

 

That's just about right.

 

But it must be very many years now ...getting on for ten or more....since I did contract office cleaning on the Island! I had some private jobs paying me £11 an hour cash in the hand back then but others less so....

 

It can be a quietly lucrative little racket cleaning! Never underestimate those people pushing hoovers around! They may not look much but some of them collect wads of untaxed wonga every week!

 

One old women cleaner I knew kept two horses at livery in Abbeylands!

 

By the way, cleaning is a young man's game now and even the Government was paying its cleaners over £10 an hour in the Villa Marina almost four years ago.... and which when some did ten hours a day/night and worked for other employers elsewhere....well, you can see that cleaning can make more than many a Finance Sector office hack.

 

One of the Philippino men at the Villa told me that he and his wife had saved £76,000 cash in under three years working as cleaners and carers..and they had their family on the Island.

 

But then they don't invest in the local brewery!

Oh dear Barry I have just dispatched a crack(!) team from the Tax Office (Volcanic Ash permitting) to Stevenage sheltered housing to reclaim some unpaid income tax.Try not to keep up the Octogenarians with your all night typing...

[fatshaft]

 

 

 

Corruption - A fully independent Scotland would make The Republic Of Ireland look like a model country !!

What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

The Republic Of Ireland is by general consent a "basket case economy" Famous for producing corrupt politicians it now faces years of recession.

Erm yes, that covers Ireland. My question was, what are you basing your groundless asertions on Scotland making Ireland pale by comparison on?

[SJR]

 

 

 

Corruption - A fully independent Scotland would make The Republic Of Ireland look like a model country !!

What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

The Republic Of Ireland is by general consent a "basket case economy" Famous for producing corrupt politicians it now faces years of recession.

Erm yes, that covers Ireland. My question was, what are you basing your groundless asertions on Scotland making Ireland pale by comparison on?

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

[VinnieK]

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

 

The Palace of Westminster took about thirty years to complete (over five times the original estimate), with construction being much delayed and costs overruning for much of that period. Thus, by your reasoning, the UK would inevitably become a 'basket case economy' and should never have been considered fit to function as an independent country.

[SJR]

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

 

The Palace of Westminster took about thirty years to complete (over five times the original estimate), with construction being much delayed and costs overruning for much of that period. Thus, by your reasoning, the UK would inevitably become a 'basket case economy' and should never have been considered fit to function as an independent country.

No danger of 40 times over budget then !! The Scottish Parliament building (built to debate a subsidy) took 5 years to build, and to compare it to the Palace Of Westminster (built to Govern An Empire) is absurd.

[fatshaft]

 

 

 

Corruption - A fully independent Scotland would make The Republic Of Ireland look like a model country !!

What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

The Republic Of Ireland is by general consent a "basket case economy" Famous for producing corrupt politicians it now faces years of recession.

Erm yes, that covers Ireland. My question was, what are you basing your groundless asertions on Scotland making Ireland pale by comparison on?

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what the word "corruption" means.

[SJR]

 

 

 

Corruption - A fully independent Scotland would make The Republic Of Ireland look like a model country !!

What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

The Republic Of Ireland is by general consent a "basket case economy" Famous for producing corrupt politicians it now faces years of recession.

Erm yes, that covers Ireland. My question was, what are you basing your groundless asertions on Scotland making Ireland pale by comparison on?

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what the word "corruption" means.

Does it mean "paid for by the English?"

[maður]

One could argue about that for sure. Where do the English get their money from?

[fatshaft]

 

 

 

Corruption - A fully independent Scotland would make The Republic Of Ireland look like a model country !!

What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

The Republic Of Ireland is by general consent a "basket case economy" Famous for producing corrupt politicians it now faces years of recession.

Erm yes, that covers Ireland. My question was, what are you basing your groundless asertions on Scotland making Ireland pale by comparison on?

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what the word "corruption" means.

Does it mean "paid for by the English?"

Paid for by the English what?

[SJR]

 

 

 

Corruption - A fully independent Scotland would make The Republic Of Ireland look like a model country !!

What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

The Republic Of Ireland is by general consent a "basket case economy" Famous for producing corrupt politicians it now faces years of recession.

Erm yes, that covers Ireland. My question was, what are you basing your groundless asertions on Scotland making Ireland pale by comparison on?

How about a new parliament building estimated cost £10 million final cost £414 million !! Not much corruption there and who paid for it !!

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what the word "corruption" means.

Does it mean "paid for by the English?"

Paid for by the English what?

Taxpayer....