Please Vote Against The "kill The Gays"

[guzzi]

A while ago, on a different thread, I suggested a scale for the offensiveness of various kinds of shit. It seemed to find a fair bit of agreement, and it was even suggested it ought to be named after me. However, I now think it needs to be refined. The new 'guzzi' scale therefore, starting with the truly odious and repulsive, through to the mildly unsavoury:

 

1 IoMSPCo shit

 

2 Keigmeister shit

 

3 Spook shit

 

4 Cat shit

 

5 Dog shit

 

6 Cow/bull shit

 

7 Horse shit

 

8 Sheep shit

 

9 Rabbit shit

[spook]

But laying themselves open to being scapeboats AS A RESULT of societal racism does not mean the animosity that developed was THEIR fault and, of course, the treatment they received was totally undeserved.

 

Not social racism (assuming I understand what you mean by the phrase) but the understandable distrust that would always emerge when one easily identifiable sector of society, especially when on the fringe of society at the best of times, is doing much better than people within main stream society.

 

It is quite understandable why they did not integrate.

 

No it is not.

 

We can't blame them for that.

 

Yes we can

 

Nor believe that it was their responsibility to fix the problems caused by an irrational fear and distrust of the Jews.

 

Yes it was. They should have gone the extra mile TO integrate yet they did not.

 

I have already questioned why the use the term hedonistic. It appears that upon doing so you have inserted the description more and more without providing explanation. You seem to be trolling in this respect.

 

Hedonistic means pursuing self gratification and pleasure at the expense of all else. In this case the (dubious) pleasure that homosexual men want to engage in irrespective of all else even to the extent of pretending that what they do is in some way normal.

 

You do seem to want to redefine normal and so let's establish just what normal is in this sense. It is normal for the majority of people. Not a subset.

 

That's what I don't understand. Are the Peel baptists (such as Else) more 'hardcore' than the Douglas ones on Broadway?

 

Why Peel? And what is “hard core”?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Not social racism (assuming I understand what you mean by the phrase) but the understandable distrust that would always emerge when one easily identifiable sector of society, especially when on the fringe of society at the best of times, is doing much better than people within main stream society.

You think they were simply jealous? I think you are ignoring how racism is bound up with the reasons for the Jews having stuck together and also for how easily they were identified and, more importantly, vilified.

 

It is understandable why they stuck together in ghettoes and the like. Do you not understand why national groups or people with similar interests club together and not mix?

 

Yes it was. They should have gone the extra mile TO integrate yet they did not.

I recognise that when people do not mix they can be serious problems, but why do you think there is a requirement for them to do so?

 

As for hedonism, you will have to demonstrate HOW gay men are hedonistic. I fail to understand how you arrive at this conclusion. Do you mean that they have sex with regard to the limitations of straight culture?

 

You do seem to want to redefine normal and so let's establish just what normal is in this sense. It is normal for the majority of people. Not a subset.

No, you seem to be building up a straw man now! I haven't redefined normal. I understand it to mean what the majority is or what the majority does. But it has no relevance here. I don't regard the terms as useful. What are you trying to prove by reference to a majority or minority?

 

Why Peel? And what is hard core?

I mean hardcore as being more 'god fearing' and less liberal. And I refer to Peel in that the late Else had something of a reputation, as he was rather 'hardcore'. And I think Peel and Douglas (and Ramsey?) were the only baptist churches around now.

[thebees]

Good news Gosh I'm full of informative e-mails me, just chock full of em.

 

 

Dear friends,

 

 

 

Frank Mugisha and other brave human rights defenders delivering our petition to the Ugandan Parliament just before leaders dropped the gay death penalty law.

Uganda's anti-gay law has failed! It looked sure to pass last week, but after 1.6 million petition signatures delivered to Parliament, tens of thousands of phone calls to our own governments, hundreds of media stories about our campaign and a massive global outcry, Ugandan politicians dropped the bill!

 

It was down to the wire - religious extremists tried to push the bill through on Wednesday, and then convened an unprecedented emergency session of Parliament on Friday. But each time, within hours, we reacted. A huge congratulations to everyone who signed, called, forwarded and donated to this campaign - with our help, thousands of innocent people in Uganda's gay community do not wake up this morning facing execution for whom they chose to love.

 

Frank Mugisha, a courageous leader of the gay community in Uganda sent us this message:

 

"Brave Ugandan LGBT activists and millions of people around the world have stood together and faced down this horrendous anti-homosexuality bill.The support from the Avaaz global community has tipped the scales to prevent this Bill going forward. Global solidarity has made a huge difference."

 

The EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs' Office also wrote to Avaaz:

 

"Many thanks. As you know, thanks to a very large extent to the intensive lobbying and combined effort of you, other civil society representatives, EU and other governments, plus our delegation and embassies on the ground the Bill was not presented to the Parliament this morning."

 

This fight is not over. The extremists behind this bill could try again within just 18 months. But this is the second time we've helped defeat this bill, and we'll keep going until the hate-mongers give up.

 

Transforming the deeper causes of ignorance and hatred behind homophobia is an historic, long term struggle, one of the great causes of our generation. But Uganda has become a front line in that struggle, and a powerful symbol. The victory there echoes across many other places where hope is desperately needed, showing that kindness, love, tolerance and respect can defeat hatred and ignorance. Again, a huge thanks to all who made it happen.

 

With enormous gratitude and admiration for this amazing community,

 

Ricken, Emma, Iain, Alice, Giulia, Saloni and the whole Avaaz team.

[Aquarius]

Good news Gosh I'm full of informative e-mails me, just chock full of em.

 

 

Dear friends

 

 

 

Frank Mugisha and other brave human rights defenders delivering our petition to the Ugandan Parliament just before leaders dropped the gay death penalty law.

Uganda's anti-gay law has failed! It looked sure to pass last week, but after 1.6 million petition signatures delivered to Parliament, tens of thousands of phone calls to our own governments, hundreds of media stories about our campaign and a massive global outcry, Ugandan politicians dropped the bill!

 

It was down to the wire - religious extremists tried to push the bill through on Wednesday, and then convened an unprecedented emergency session of Parliament on Friday. But each time, within hours, we reacted. A huge congratulations to everyone who signed, called, forwarded

and donated to this campaign - with our help, thousands of innocent people in Uganda's gay community do not wake up this morning facing execution for whom they chose to love.

 

Frank Mugisha, a courageous leader of the gay community in Uganda sent us this message:

 

"Brave Ugandan LGBT activists and millions of people

around the world have stood together and faced down this horrendous anti-homosexuality bill.The support from the Avaaz global community has tipped the scales to prevent this Bill going forward. Global solidarity has made a huge difference."

 

The EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs' Office also wrote to Avaaz:

 

"Many thanks. As you know, thanks to a very large extent to the intensive lobbying and combined effort of you, other civil society representatives, EU and other governments, plus our delegation and embassies on the ground the Bill was not presented to the Parliament this morning."

 

This fight is not over. The extremists behind this bill could try again within just 18 months. But this is the second time

we've helped defeat this bill, and we'll keep going until the hate-mongers give up.

 

Transforming the deeper causes of ignorance and hatred behind homophobia is an historic, long term struggle, one of the great causes of our generation. But Uganda has become a front line in that struggle, and a powerful symbol. The victory there echoes across many other places

where hope is desperately needed, showing that kindness, love, tolerance and respect can defeat hatred and ignorance. Again, a huge thanks to all who made it happen.

 

With enormous gratitude and admiration for this amazing community,

 

Ricken, Emma, Iain, Alice, Giulia, Saloni and the whole Avaaz team.

Great news Bees. Glad I signed it. What a shame homophobia is still alive and kicking in the West also. And we think we are superior? Pah!

[Keigmeister]

As if anyone would compare the plight of homosexuals to the 6 million Jews wiped out by the Nazis, get real.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Are you serious? What comparison do you think I am making? Doesn't look like you understood the previous posts.

[Keigmeister]

Not you, some other post I saw a few pages back.

[guzzi]

As if anyone would compare the plight of homosexuals to the 6 million Jews wiped out by the Nazis, get real.

 

In an earlier post, your fellow Christian, Spook, wrote:

 

 

"Maybe if the jews had reacted to the writing in the wall when the Nazis were building a power base and hadn't simply in effect sat back and did a McCawberesque “Something will always turn up”"

 

He was arguing that gays have a duty to stay put in Uganda even though they are persecuted there in order to try to secure a future free from persecution in their native country.

 

I personally think that to imply that the Jews might have been in some way responsible for the holocaust was odious, like so many of Spook's pronouncements.

[Evil Goblin]

I don't think Spook meant to imply that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust (at least I hope not). He might have been referring to the fact that Jewish people in Germany tended to group together in particular areas and to restrict their social activities to other Jews. This made them easily cast as "outsiders" by the Nazis and made the job of vilifying them easier. The point may be that if the Jewish people had assimilated more into the general population then Hitler et al would have had a much harder job in persuading Germans to persecute them (or tolerate the persecution). Given the centuries-old animosity in Europe to Jews I don't know how realistic such assimilation might have been.

Re Uganda I see the point - unless people stay there and put up a fight then things will not get changed.

[MilitantDogOwner]

I don't think Spook meant to imply that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust (at least I hope not). He might have been referring to the fact that Jewish people in Germany tended to group together in particular areas and to restrict their social activities to other Jews. This made them easily cast as "outsiders" by the Nazis and made the job of vilifying them easier. The point may be that if the Jewish people had assimilated more into the general population then Hitler et al would have had a much harder job in persuading Germans to persecute them (or tolerate the persecution). Given the centuries-old animosity in Europe to Jews I don't know how realistic such assimilation might have been.

Re Uganda I see the point - unless people stay there and put up a fight then things will not get changed.

 

Gays vs. government sponsored butchers with guns.

 

I can see that being a fair fight.

[Evil Goblin]

Gays vs. government sponsored butchers with guns.

I can see that being a fair fight.

I never thought it would be a fair fight but that's life - tough at times. If all the gays leave Uganda instead of staying and fighting their corner then there will be no gays in Uganda and no change in the Laws and attitudes there - how will future gays born in the country fare if that happens? Unless you are advocating that all us "progressive" nations invade the place and enforce change? I hope not because that's the sort of behaviour which starts wars. Leave the Ugandans to sort themselves out.

[MilitantDogOwner]

Gays vs. government sponsored butchers with guns.

I can see that being a fair fight.

I never thought it would be a fair fight but that's life - tough at times.

 

It would be no fight at all. This is why the Warlords and Despots of Africa/Middle East surround themselves with mental cases carrying AKs who would have no problem gunning down men, women and children.

 

Standing for your rights is one thing. Standing for your rights against a 7.62mm is a different story. (I'll let you into the ending, the 7.62mm wins).

 

"If all the gays leave Uganda instead of staying and fighting their corner ".

 

How do you propose they fight their corner? I know there are more AKs in Africa than there are people, but the average Ugandan probably doesn't have one and sure as hell doesn't know how to use it (effectivly). It isn't like in the films, where the band of plucky civilians can bring down an armed regiem. You only have to look at Libya. If other nations hadn't got involved, you were either Pro-Maddafi or dead.

[Evil Goblin]

OK, MDO - it's all very well to try and take the moral high ground but what would you actually suggest be done?

[MilitantDogOwner]

OK, MDO - it's all very well to try and take the moral high ground but what would you actually suggest be done?

 

 

Who's taking the moral highground? I'm stating the realities of you're fight or flight scenarios. Fight, many civilians will be slaughtered for nothing. Flight, many civilians will still be killed in the exodus and neighbouring countries will be flooded with refugees.

 

If we interfere...we're the nasty imperialist West.

 

If we don't interfere...we're the nasty uncaring imperialist West.