Greece

[Evil Goblin]

I believe that a Greek default is inevitable and the current game is to kick the can down the road and keep it afloat long enough for the banks' losses to be transferred onto the taxpayers of Europe. Greece will end up out of the Euro and I suspect that too is inevitable, just a question of when. The real question now is whether or not the same chain of events will follow for Ireland and Portugal, both of which are as insolvent as Greece and have just about as much chance of repaying their debts as Greece has i.e. no chance - that raises the question of the solvency of entire mainline European nations like France, UK, Spain, Italy, etc.

One consequence of it all will be, I am sure, a massive inflation via "Quantative Easing" ( a mere synonym for printing money) to ameliorate the debt burden of the various States - savers with their savings in cash/bank deposit form are going to get royally ruined - what incentive is there for people to save in this scenario? It explains why only about a third of UK people are now contributing to any kind of pension fund - why save now when the value of what you save (after the pension managers, investment advisers, etc. have ripped out their chunks) is going to be destroyed? There seems to be a lot to be said for getting into as much debt as possible and await the inevitable reduction in its' real value from inflation and, in the worst case that you can't repay, you can absolve yourself of being accused of profligacy by the fact that millions of others will be doing the same.

[Nom de plume]

The moment of truth is here.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13937481

[Cambon]

The moment of truth is here.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-13937481

 

Not really. Greece will get the money or a delay. It will not default, well not yet anyway. Regardless of the vote, the IMF will keep Greece going until the banks have recovered enough to take the brunt of the default when it happens 2-3 years down the road, as the article says.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I just hope the people do not accept any further austerity measures or not what is being proposed. I'd rather they default if they will be faces by very hard times.

[spook]

I just hope the people do not accept any further austerity measures or not what is being proposed. I'd rather they default if they will be faces by very hard times.

Why should the Industrial (and industrious) North of Europe pay for the lazy Greeks?

 

The Greeks have run up huge debts, live a life that is incompatible with the eraning capacity of their country, and expect to have others pay.

 

Before the EU subsidies and later the credit rating boost they got by illegally joining the Eurozone the population comprised of a few well off people and a majority of peasants scraping a living boosted by a firly vibrant tourism industry that was vibrant mostly because everything was so inexpensive as a result of a predominatly peasant lifestyle and living standards.

 

It was what Greece as a country could afford.

 

Then came the Gravy Train, the country was in effect given a MasterCard and the whole lot went on a spending spree.

 

Now it's payback time. The people don't like it but can't pay it. Why I ask should the rest of the EU along with the IMF fork out for them while they continue to live the life of Riley?

 

So come on, LDV, WHO SHOULD PAY ---- AND WHY.

 

Also why should anyone else pay for the greedy and selfish to the point of being hedonistic Greeks unless the Greeks accept that they MUST return to a lifestyle they can themselves pay for from what they earn as a country?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Fucks sake. I was almost going to bother answering you but it doesn't seem worthwhile. This debt is not the Greeks citizens debt, as we can hardly hold them to any serious extent responsible for the forms of expenditure and mismanagement of the State itself. I don't think in your mistaken belief that liberal democratic governments represent the complete will of the people you would come to any recognition of this.

 

But additional to public expenditure they should make sure the government default on the IMF loan. Again, that debt is not theirs but was accepted by their government.

 

Default and then suffer the consequences that will ensue. But at least not to be straightjacketed by very austere measures from IMF conditions.

[spook]

As always, I edit out profanity.

 

I was almost going to bother answering you but it doesn't seem worthwhile.

 

With your weird perspective on economics I suppose the situation may not be as clear cut as it actually is.

 

This debt is not the Greeks citizens debt,

 

If not theirs, then whose?

 

as we can hardly hold them to any serious extent responsible for the forms of expenditure and mismanagement of the State itself.

 

Their government delivered an unsustainable lifestyle to them. Their government comprise of their representatives. The Greeks must now not only pay the piper but they must tell him to stop playing and end the party.

 

I don't think in your mistaken belief that liberal democratic governments represent the complete will of the people you would come to any recognition of this.

 

Democratically elected governments represent the majority of the people.

 

But additional to public expenditure they should make sure the government default on the IMF loan. Again, that debt is not theirs but was accepted by their government.

 

Their government represent the majority of the people. Even the minority didn't stop holding their scrounging hands out when the Gravy Train visited – again and again.

 

Default and then suffer the consequences that will ensue. But at least not to be straightjacketed by very austere measures from IMF conditions.

 

How about them wanting to be in the EEC and take the billions of grants and billions of loans from the EEC to provide the investment to get them from a peasant subsistence lifestyle to one closer to that of people in Northern Europe (where most of the EEC money came from) and use those funds on living the high life, one that the tax payers from whom the money came from couln't afford themselves?

 

How about them taking the ECB (funded by EEC tax payers) and IMF loans (funded by tax payers form allm over the globe) to get them out of the trouble that they created by holding their hands out for early pensions, being generally indolent as a nation, riddled with corruption at all levels, and preventing prices to be charged where costs fall by continued state ownership of utilities and more with all the overmanning and hidden subsidies that follow?

 

And the “cooking of the books” thjat took place so that they could slime into the Eurozone to get their sticky fingers on even MORE European taxpayers cash?

 

They should be eternally grateful that loans to give them breathing space to restore sanity to the country are there to be had at the very reasonable cost of living within their means and with commonality with the other EEC states.

 

I would be delighted to see Greece and a few other states kicked out of the EEC, in fact I would like to see the EEC revert to a collection of states that genuinely have close to parity one to another than the dreadful mess it has become.

[When Skies Are Grey]

My word...I think I agree with Spook....I need to have a lie down in a dark room!

[Tweek]

The film was shit too - other than that Olivia Newtron Bomb strutting her stuff.

[Evil Goblin]

All this blame game will achieve nothing - we can only start from where we are now. It is evident that Greece will never be able to repay all of the loans and major write-offs (at least 50%, maybe more) will be needed - this is just recognising reality - the money's gone. As to the future - either the Greeks continue getting support as part of the great European Project (and are induced to get their act in order) or they leave the Euro, revert to the Drachma and let devaluations take the strain. That way their future can lie much more in their own hands without imperilling the other countries.

[pongo]

All this blame game will achieve nothing - we can only start from where we are now. It is evident that Greece will never be able to repay all of the loans and major write-offs (at least 50%, maybe more) will be needed - this is just recognising reality - the money's gone.

 

Well yes. But when we talk about bailing out Greece ... it is in reality the banks and the financial markets in general which we are talking about rescuing. It was the markets which bought and traded the risk originally - that is where the value has actually gone. In that sense Greece is analogous to the people who defaulted on their mortgages in the US.

 

So the question is not whether or not Greece should be bailed out but, rather, whether the banks should be rescued. Personally I believe that the politicians and banking hope to let the situation ride until QE and equivalent measures wipe out the value of the hole. In which case the austerity measures are something of a sham. In the good old days this sort of situation would probably have ended in a war.

 

Greece should sell the islands.

[spook]

I believe that if they don't toe the line regarding the Euro, and not just pay lip service to so doing, they should be expelled from the EEC as support to member states runs to much more than paying for their population to live unjustified lifestyles at someone else's expense.

 

This should be a Crossing the Rubicon moment for Greece, and the point at which the EEC introduces a “behave or get out rule” to member states.

[Cambon]

So the question is not whether or not Greece should be bailed out but, rather, whether the banks should be rescued. Personally I believe that the politicians and banking hope to let the situation ride until QE and equivalent measures wipe out the value of the hole. In which case the austerity measures are something of a sham. In the good old days this sort of situation would probably have ended in a war.

 

This is close to how I see it. The vote yesterday was irrelevant in reality. The question to EU was pay 12 billion now or risk another financial crisis. With the major European banks only just holding their heads above water at the moment, that can not be risked. Th e12 billion had to be paid regardless. The austerity measures aer important though. The EU has to get the greeks to start paying tax and retiring at a reasonable age. They need a proper government income so that in, say, 10 years time when the banks have written off the majority of the greek debt, Greece is capable of sustaining itself.

 

The most worrying thing is the eastern european countries who are still receiving ECB and IMF loans in the way Greece, Ireland and Portugul did, and the eurocrats asking the rich countries for more money partially so that they can lend these countries more!!!

[spook]

The area of debt in Greece isn't the banks, it's the Greek government.

 

The Greek government have been providing “benefits” and delivering public services far beyond the limited amount of the already limited tax that could be collected.

 

Retirement on a state pension at 50 is a prime example of the Greek government profligacy with the money received from other EEC tax payers. Non-tariff barriers to provision of services in Greece another, in fact the whole country has a level of corruption that is astonishing anywhere outside of Africa and most Middle East countries.

 

It's not a banking crisis, it's a crisis due to fundamental dishonesty within the Greek nation and an unwillingness to do the right thing and live a life that they can afford based on what they earn.

 

Greece joining the Eurozone ruined a perfectly good dinner table joke about “what's a Greek urn” being a few drachma an hour, now the joke can be used once again but with the punchline being “not enough for him to live the way he wants”.

[When Skies Are Grey]

Coming soon to a Eurozone near you.......Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Turkey.....

 

Stable, growing economies each and every one.