Bobbie Bobster Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 SO in LDV's eyes those who stole stuff during the riots were okay in his book, because they were poorer than the nasty rich people who own the shops. Big high street stores is fine, not family owned shops. Please explain the difference between theft from a high street store and theft from a family owned corner shop And what about taking without paying from a John Lewis Partnership store, where does that fit in? It's a big high street store, but owned by the staff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Amazing logic there. Are you making this up as we go along? For the sheer hell of it? I seem to keep answering questions surround the issues. I'd be happy to refer to you material where you can draw these conclusions if you understand the politics behind them. But to be very simplistic, it is matter of recognising the degree to which wealth held in the large chain high street store and also the impact that 'theft' would immediately have on the family or those who have the business. (And don't bother bringing up the silly question of what would happen if everyone stole - as that would never happen. The job of the State is to protect private property) MilitaryDogOwner When prison used to be an unpleasnt place to be, the majority would rather not lose their freedoms by commiting a crie and going to prison.Mere speculation. Prison might have been a worse place. No evidence to show that recognition of the lifestyle in a prison deters a crime. Did the who had a momentary desire to be violent from being angry hold back because they thought life was grotty then? I don't think so! The extent to which we have crime today is more about the social make-up of today's society, not about the punishments that await those who break the law. What a complete load of rubbish, how do you come to that conclusion?. You think if there were no wealth inequality that people wouldnt still steal from each other?!?!?! Hahahaaaaaa WTF You're right. You'd have to do away with the whole rotten capitalist system, which includes in our society the hunger for unnecessary commodities and the advertising that creates much of that need. And more importantly, do away with private property and wealth. If those things remain then you will have to be satisfied with the outcome of property crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 And what about taking without paying from a John Lewis Partnership store, where does that fit in? It's a big high street store, but owned by the staff...Are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Are you serious? More importantly what do you think about todays news of Bert and Ernie? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14504208 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Are you serious? You shall not kill You shall not commit adultery You shall not steal You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbour Are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaman Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 You shall not kill You shall not commit adultery You shall not steal You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbour Are you serious? Jebus says that though and he was a twat! Shouldn't a sense of morality (that knobwash shit that separates us from animals) be enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 You shall not kill You shall not commit adultery You shall not steal You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbour Are you serious? Jebus says that though and he was a twat! Shouldn't a sense of morality (that knobwash shit that separates us from animals) be enough? I think Moses had something to do with them before JC was around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 And what about taking without paying from a John Lewis Partnership store, where does that fit in? It's a big high street store, but owned by the staff...Are you serious? No answer then? Thought so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Well I would say it was ok. Why do you think it matters if staff owns this chain store. It isn't quite the same as cooperatives that operated in the early twentieth century. The only reason why I dislike small shops being thieved from is because the effect on the working class family who have the shop is proportionately far far greater than that on shareholders in a massive chain store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Define working class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Well I would say it was ok. Why do you think it matters if staff owns this chain store. It isn't quite the same as cooperatives that operated in the early twentieth century. The only reason why I dislike small shops being thieved from is because the effect on the working class family who have the shop is proportionately far far greater than that on shareholders in a massive chain store. Oh god, you really have some warped thinking going on...unreal and quite idiotic. Like the John Lewis example - staff own that chain, they are referred to as "Partners", not employees. If there would be loads of the likes of you, they would find it harder to make a profit and would have to let some partners go to stay open. Same goes for every other highstreet store or company, big or small. You nick stuff, it's never the execs and shareholders who pay for it - it's the people on the shop floor. That you can't understand basic real world economics just shows how far out there your thinking is. Anyway, got any Personal Property for me then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Anyway, got any Personal Property for me then? shall we all go and nick LDV's computer ? (well, it's not really a possession is it, it's just ownerless property) life would be much less frustrating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Haven't we established by now that LDV's fantasy citizen smith theories are so far removed from any kind of workable system that they really aren't worth debating? It would still be a good thing and can form an important step towards being a more responsible adult. I'd hazard a guess that NS would mean many of those kids out looting the others days would for the first time experience what a structured life and responsibilities are and that there are other ways to lead your life rather than hanging out with mates and playing X-box while not really being arsed about finding a job'n stuff. It probably could have some benefits, but it's not a solution to the current problems, it's far too late in life to make a difference to the people we're talking about here. The culture these people are raised into needs fixing as far back as their conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 It makes me smile when NS is mentioned as a "fix" for a lot of these ills. I suspect that one reason why all these feckless scrotes have no respect for law and order, property, decent folk living decent lives etc etc is because they simply have no respect for themselves. National Service ended around 1960 but going by my own experiences military life instills qualities viewed as "good" such as pride, self-respect, respect for others, comradeship, self-discipline and so forth. But modern warfare is no longer about numbers of cannon-fodder. So NS is not coming back. I think what's needed is a system that makes up for failed parents producing born-to-fail offspring. Unfortunately it seems once you're on a downward spiral like that it's very difficult to get off it. A lot of magistrates courts have referred the scrotes up the food chain for sentencing. This indicates to me that the penalties are quite rightly going to be severe. Whether it does any good or not waits to be seen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Define working classThose who need to earn a wage or salary. Amadeus That you can't understand basic real world economics just shows how far out there your thinking is.Of course I understand who would the shoplifting effects. Do you think I am anti-capitalist through having little understanding of economics? You talk about the matter as if it is something I have made up and that is an black and white matter. It isn't.It isn't a few factors that leads to a definitely acceptable or definitely unacceptable position. It's a matter of recognising that private property is wrong, that those who 'own' the goods in the store don't have a strong claim to ownership in a coercive capitalist system of wage slavery, recognising that there is serious problem with wealth inequality, taking into account the direct effect that shoplifting has on owners. It's isn't a political policy, just a social response to capitalism that I have no issue with. And stop asking the dullard question of whether you can nick my stuff. It's very tedious. You imply that I am the one with no grasp of the realities and yet I have wrote down on here enough times why it is wrong to steal from other working class people and what the difference between possession and property is. Slim Haven't we established by now that LDV's fantasy citizen smith theories are so far removed from any kind of workable system that they really aren't worth debating?Actually no, but it is clear you have never established what my politics are. It is no fantasy - people shoplift. And it is case of whether you agree with it or not and for what reasons. And how do you know whether any other system is workable or not? It might be very difficult to transform society to operate but there is merit in such theories as partipatory economics. It probably could have some benefits, but it's not a solution to the current problems, it's far too late in life to make a difference to the people we're talking about here. The culture these people are raised into needs fixing as far back as their conception.I agree. But it is the chicken and the egg. How do you solve the problems for the youngsters when the parents cannot be changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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