Israel V Gaza

[censorship]

What are the merits of a proportional response? Surely, if you are going to go for a military response you want it to be absolute, otherwise you will be faced with a proportional response to your proportional response, which then requires a further proportional response from you. Surely your response must be, to paraphrase the Hamas-supporting Iran, intended to wipe your opponent off the face of the Earth.

[Donald Trumps]

Israel has fired about $29 millions dollars worth of missile into Gaza in the last 3 days. And what have they achieved?

 

Lots of pre-election publicity for the right wing parties

[Chinahand]

Lxxx, at least link to the original source.

 

And yes I agree this is the rhetoric of the Israeli Right - NOT the Government, though no doubt some members of it, Mr Liberman, for example, probably agree.

 

Northern Ireland invented the term "acceptable level of violence". And Israel is facing that dilemma - how much violence should it accept from Hamas and the other groups in Gaza, and how much violence should it use to stop and deter them.

 

And so, what Mr Sharon is debating is deterrence.

 

This is one of the most fascinating issues in geo-politics, because deterrence assumes rational actors. Israel wants to portray itself as a rational actor - I have my doubts, and there is a far larger debate concerning whether Iran is a rational actor (and what it means if it is!) - and Hamas; as Iran's proxy

AND as an actor in its own right.

 

Israel has to justify its actions to the wider international community. For some reason Hamas is far less held to account in justifying why it fired 2 or so rockets every day at Israeli towns throughout this year, until its escalations brought the current Israeli response.

 

Hamas clearly gets a lot less condemnation for its violence than Israel - probably because it is at a lower level, but it is insiduous.

 

I am conflicted, but I still think Israel would accept peace; but they have to believe that their enemies would also rationalize that this is in their interests. It's touch and go - what is being offered to the Palestinians isn't a lot, a huge lot less than what their political leadership has been promising their people - though maybe that is changing.

 

Will Hamas accept peace - as far as I am concerned that is a bigger ask for them than it is for Israel. Israel cherishes its peace with Egypt and Jordan, and would, I believe, leave Gaza alone if Hamas etc didn't keep attacking it.

 

I feel there are vaible states based around the 1948 borders - Gaza would not be so different from Singapore or Hong Kong. They need tweaking, but I don't think an accommodation is impossible.

 

But does Hamas want that? Would it fit with its Messianic, Martyr driven religious ideology.

 

I think Israel is hoping the inhabitants of Gaza are not as religiously motivated as Hamas is, and that Hamas is not as religiously motivated as it claims to be. If so a peace maybe possible.

 

This is the interesting point - Lxxx you think Israel is being violent because it doesn't want peace. I can understand your point - it definitely is the position of the Israeli Right. Is it the position of the rest of Israeli society? I'm not sure - they don't believe they have a partner to find peace with from the Palestinian side. Fatah is sidelined - but seems closer to agreeing a peace Israel would accept. Hamas' position is far more complicated as it is so much an Iranian proxy, and its position has been strengthened by the Arab Spring.

 

The Arab Spring looks quite a digital event - it may bring in Islamic Moderates and move in the direction of Turkey, or create a more religious revolutionary atmosphere closer to the religion saturated politics of Iran. Middle East Peace would seem to rest on how it works out - and how Israel reacts to it. Going to be interesting few years.

 

Sadly they could be very bloody.

[Chinahand]

Just to add. I read many years ago a book by David Grossman - The Yellow Wind. It contained this great quote which sums up a lot of what I feel about the men making their strategies and plots for the Middle East at the moment:

 

I do not comprehend people who set history in motion. They amuse themselves, I feel with overly large toys.

[Lxxx]

Lxxx, at least link to the original source.

 

And yes I agree this is the rhetoric of the Israeli Right - NOT the Government, though no doubt some members of it, Mr Liberman, for example, probably agree.

 

Northern Ireland invented the term "acceptable level of violence". And Israel is facing that dilemma - how much violence should it accept from Hamas and the other groups in Gaza, and how much violence should it use to stop and deter them.

 

And so, what Mr Sharon is debating is deterrence.

 

This is one of the most fascinating issues in geo-politics, because deterrence assumes rational actors. Israel wants to portray itself as a rational actor - I have my doubts, and there is a far larger debate concerning whether Iran is a rational actor (and what it means if it is!) - and Hamas; as Iran's proxy

AND as an actor in its own right.

 

Israel has to justify its actions to the wider international community. For some reason Hamas is far less held to account in justifying why it fired 2 or so rockets every day at Israeli towns throughout this year, until its escalations brought the current Israeli response.

 

Hamas clearly gets a lot less condemnation for its violence than Israel - probably because it is at a lower level, but it is insiduous.

 

I am conflicted, but I still think Israel would accept peace; but they have to believe that their enemies would also rationalize that this is in their interests. It's touch and go - what is being offered to the Palestinians isn't a lot, a huge lot less than what their political leadership has been promising their people - though maybe that is changing.

 

Will Hamas accept peace - as far as I am concerned that is a bigger ask for them than it is for Israel. Israel cherishes its peace with Egypt and Jordan, and would, I believe, leave Gaza alone if Hamas etc didn't keep attacking it.

 

I feel there are vaible states based around the 1948 borders - Gaza would not be so different from Singapore or Hong Kong. They need tweaking, but I don't think an accommodation is impossible.

 

But does Hamas want that? Would it fit with its Messianic, Martyr driven religious ideology.

 

I think Israel is hoping the inhabitants of Gaza are not as religiously motivated as Hamas is, and that Hamas is not as religiously motivated as it claims to be. If so a peace maybe possible.

 

This is the interesting point - Lxxx you think Israel is being violent because it doesn't want peace. I can understand your point - it definitely is the position of the Israeli Right. Is it the position of the rest of Israeli society? I'm not sure - they don't believe they have a partner to find peace with from the Palestinian side. Fatah is sidelined - but seems closer to agreeing a peace Israel would accept. Hamas' position is far more complicated as it is so much an Iranian proxy, and its position has been strengthened by the Arab Spring.

 

The Arab Spring looks quite a digital event - it may bring in Islamic Moderates and move in the direction of Turkey, or create a more religious revolutionary atmosphere closer to the religion saturated politics of Iran. Middle East Peace would seem to rest on how it works out - and how Israel reacts to it. Going to be interesting few years.

 

Sadly they could be very bloody.

 

I agree it is a complex issue with any number of ideological aspects vying for their own agenda. The issue is the Zionist right wing of Netanyahu et al seem to hold sway and the more moderate parties, and indeed what seems to be the majority of Israeli's, seem to have been marginalised.

The other issue is the worldwide Zionist movement with it's unbelievably wealthy backers who can sit safely in their New York/London/Washington homes well away from the harsh daily reality and continue to funnel support and funds from afar to keep this situation going indefinitely.

Of course there are hardliners on both sides but the onus is on the more moderate factions on both sides of the table to persevere. Unfortunately the right wing on either side of the fence hold more power and ultimately want more destruction.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Hamas clearly gets a lot less condemnation for its violence than Israel - probably because it is at a lower level, but it is insiduous.

It is because people see that Israel brings this on itself. People recognise that the people in Gaza in stuck in a little prison zone

For some reason Hamas is far less held to account in justifying why it fired 2 or so rockets every day at Israeli towns throughout this year, until its escalations brought the current Israeli response.

Will Hamas accept peace - as far as I am concerned that is a bigger ask for them than it is for Israel. Israel cherishes its peace with Egypt and Jordan, and would, I believe, leave Gaza alone if Hamas etc didn't keep attacking it.

It would probably would 'leave them alone' but I can't imagine they would stop treating Gaza as part of Israel or under their control. And that's part of the issue here.

I feel there are vaible states based around the 1948 borders - Gaza would not be so different from Singapore or Hong Kong. They need tweaking, but I don't think an accommodation is impossible.

Not sure what you mean there by saying '[you] feel there are viable states...'.

[Albert Tatlock]

They should have placed Israel where East Germany was.

[prism10]

They should have placed Israel where East Germany was.

 

All these politicians in Europe and the USA who got on about Israel's right to exist are not willing to give their own backyard but instead gave away someone else's land.

 

You are right, they should had part of Germany as appropriate reparations.

[Donald Trumps]

Why do Palestinians want their own state, again?

 

http://en.avaaz.org/1108/palestine-gaza-statehood-bid-un?utm_source=twitter_avaaz&utm_medium=social_media&utm_campaign=palestine

[prism10]

Why do Palestinians want their own state, again?

 

http://en.avaaz.org/...paign=palestine

 

Here is something i came across in another website today:

 

I can remember a Palestinian quoted as saying to the effect "we didn't kill 6million Jews, why did we have to be the ones displaced?"

[Lxxx]

Why do Palestinians want their own state, again?

 

http://en.avaaz.org/...paign=palestine

 

Here is something i came across in another website today:

 

I can remember a Palestinian quoted as saying to the effect "we didn't kill 6million Jews, why did we have to be the ones displaced?"

 

Sssshhhh.....you could be labelled anti-semitic for expressing those views.

[Donald Trumps]

Each of the recent Israeli assaults on Gaza has come on the eve of a General Election:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/opinion/roger-cohen-Gaza-Without-End.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

[wrighty]

...the late Prime Minister Ariel's son...

 

I think he's still alive, at least technically.

[prism10]

...the late Prime Minister Ariel's son...

 

I think he's still alive, at least technically.

 

He will be technically alive longer than me and you, thats for sure

[P.K.]

What are the merits of a proportional response? Surely, if you are going to go for a military response you want it to be absolute, otherwise you will be faced with a proportional response to your proportional response, which then requires a further proportional response from you. Surely your response must be, to paraphrase the Hamas-supporting Iran, intended to wipe your opponent off the face of the Earth.

 

On a sheer strike count the Israeli response in disproportionate in that it is a comparatively low number. But then modern munitions are expensive and even when dealing with enemies who have sworn to wipe you out there's no need to be extravagant.

 

Hamas fires several hundred rockets into Israel. There's an election on the way so it's a good time to show strong governance and leadership by retaliating and destroying the Gaza infrastructure with surgical and clearly well thought out strikes. Civilians die along the way as they have done since wars began. So there's lots of hand-wringing by the international community, who conveniently forget the Palestinian casualties are the ones who voted Hamas into power, until it eventually all calms down again.

 

Until the next time....