Questions, Questions, Questions....

[Lonan3]

QUOTE(Rog @ Apr 26 2005, 01:50 PM)

I wouldn’t return to live on the Island under any circumstances unless there was root and branch reform. It has a nasty corrupt government.

 

 

I enjoy being able to put the errors of our politicians into some kind of spotlight, even if it is only the fairly restricted arena of a forum. At the same time, I'm very much aware that there are many places where the degree of corruption is a great deal worse than anything that we have to concern ourselves with.

I would suggest, for example, that any country whose leaders were dumb enough to go war in Iraq because of what Bush/Blair said on the subject has a good deal to worry about - especially if the electorate continue to vote for those leaders.

The UK has a sterile party system that allows little real choice for its voters.

That US has a system that requires politicians to be grotesquely rich before they can even contemplate standing for the presidency.

The EU parliament has an infinitely worse record on corruption than ours could ever hope to manage.

All in all, it makes our problems look a bit minor. Personally, despite exercising my right to criticise what I don't approve of, I can't think of anywhere else that I would prefer to raise my family, knowing that they will receive a good education, be looked after by a fairly decent health service and, most of all, be allowed to play outside without having to fret about whether they are alright every few seconds.

 

The Isle of Man may not be paradise, but it'll do.

[Slim]

The basis of my knowledge of what’s going down on The Island?  It’s on my knowledge of what is taking place in a number of firms with which I have dealings from time to time and on being kept up to date from other first hand contacts that I have maintained over a considerable number of years. 

 

So, heresay and gossip? Right, glad we've got that cleared up.

 

Corruption on the Isle of Man, where the people that are being crapped on are the friends, neighbors, and even relations of those doing the crapping, is at the very least unusual outside of a  banana republic.  And it is at a level that is at least unusual.

 

We're not the only small government in the world. Or are you suggesting every other small government is free of corruption?

 

But it’s alos a matter of degree.  With a population of only 75 off thousand, a figure incidentally not only lower than some housing estates on the Mainland but smaller than the number of people employed by some corporations, the degree of mismanagement, incompetence, back door deals, and sheer corruption is quite astounding. 

 

Says you, but based on what? A few high profile cases? My daily life isn't actually all that affected by corruption as far as I can tell? The Richard Corkill thing, if true will cost me what, a quid of tax? Woot. The Mount Murray business cost a lot more, but then we have the planning reforms as a result at least. What else? Where else have I been crapped on rog?

 

Just look again at the questions raised by Chris that started this threat off as an indicator of wrongdoing – and they just scratch the surface.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They're just questions mate, I could ask:

 

Why are paranoid doomsaying weirdo's stalking our forums telling us how awful our rather pleasant little island is.

 

what does that tell you?

[Jonty]

I may be naïve but:

 

Apart from the Mount Murray affair (which has been fully investigated)

 

And the Richard Corkill affair (which is being fully investigated)

 

Where is there any evidence of corruption?

 

If there were brown envelopes passing around, I am sure that in a small Island like this they would quickly become public knowledge – and as in the cases mentioned above, a full investigation would take place.

 

The real problem with Government in recent years is that the coffers have been overflowing, and with major projects (IRIS, Hospital, Incinerator etc) they have fallen prey to the slick salesmen/consultants and opted for Rolls Royce versions. They have not handled the private sector well. (See MEA)

 

The same complaint was made with the new Sulby Dam in the late 70’s – and it has turned out to be a boon. People probably said the same when Injebreck was built in 1905.

 

With all the complaints about the Hospital being too grandiose, I guarantee that within ten years they will be building extensions because it is too small.

 

History may judge that, by going for the best, this current crop of politicians were visionaries.

 

No doubt there is incompetence (not corruption) in some areas, but our quality of life more than makes up for that.

[ans]

Where is there any evidence of corruption?

 

Man, you're going to regret that question

[Rog]

Where is there any evidence of corruption?

 

Man, you're going to regret that question

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not from my direction. there are none quite so blind as those who will not see.

 

Or who choose to make out that they don't.

[geo]

Personally, despite exercising my right to criticise what I don't approve of, I can't think of anywhere else that I would prefer to raise my family, knowing that they will receive a good education, be looked after by a fairly decent health service and, most of all, be allowed to play outside without having to fret about whether they are alright every few seconds.

 

The Isle of Man may not be paradise, but it'll do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well said and a very very solid point.

 

Geo

[Slim]

Not from my direction.  there are none quite so blind as those who will not see.

Or who choose to make out that they don't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's the way it looks to us too Rog. Your bleeting yourself blind.

[FCMR]

What about the property owners in Tynwald Street whos properties were bought by the Government at well below the market value and will do so again, how would a active poster feel if that happened to him.

 

A previous poster mentioned brown envelopes being dished out and was disputed by another poster, all I can say is lets wait untill the MEA investigation (if it ever is) is over and have a count up of the brown envelopes, its a sad fact of life on the Island to be asked for a back hander.

 

And can someone tell me why the Government have not put the Hansards of the Tynwald select Commitee looking into grants on to the web with the rest of the Hansards, and why they are telling members of the public that it does not exist.

[Lonan3]

In other places the disgraceful affairs such as the Mount Murray scandal alone would have resulted in riots in the street – and rightly so..

 

 

So should I hold my breath waiting for riots in the streets of Birmingham after the postal votes affair? Or riots following the 'revelation' that were no WMDs in iraq?

 

And can I please stop holding my breath waiting for riots on the streets of America after the George Bush-Al Gore votes fiasco

[crumlin]

Did Ducker Downie keep his job as the Minister for the DTI and his other two Department posts. Nothing coming out of the Minister meeting as its behind closed doors. Has Donald made his reshuffle today is that why the news is late coming out

[Slim]

What about the property owners in Tynwald Street whos properties were bought by the Government at well below the market value and will do so again, how would a active poster feel if that happened to him.

 

Another question? What use is that? If you've got some facts, speak about them, all this 'what about' stuff just continues a myth that there's all this badness around without any evidence.

 

A previous poster mentioned brown envelopes being dished out and was disputed by another poster, all I can say is lets wait untill the MEA investigation (if it ever is) is over and have a count up of the brown envelopes

 

Ok, we will, and we'll comment then. We wont assume there's corruption until we know, how about that?

 

And can someone tell me why the Government have not put the Hansards of the Tynwald select Commitee looking into grants on to the web with the rest of the Hansards, and why they are telling members of the public that it does not exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Another question. Is this evidence of corruption too? Is the handsard available in paper form? Pretty shoddy cover up if so.

[P.K.]

The basis of my knowledge of what’s going down on The Island?  It’s on my knowledge of what is taking place in a number of firms with which I have dealings from time to time and on being kept up to date from other first hand contacts that I have maintained over a considerable number of years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, heresay and gossip? Right, glad we've got that cleared up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At no point does Rog state his info is "heresay and gossip" so have I missed something?

 

Corruption on the Isle of Man, where the people that are being crapped on are the friends, neighbors, and even relations of those doing the crapping, is at the very least unusual outside of a  banana republic.  And it is at a level that is at least unusual.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're not the only small government in the world. Or are you suggesting every other small government is free of corruption?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as I can tell Rog is simply stating that the level is surprising in an alleged Western "democracy" hence the "banana republic" mention. Interestingly a life-long friend of mine recently described the IOM as exactly that - a banana republic.

 

But it’s alos a matter of degree.  With a population of only 75 off thousand, a figure incidentally not only lower than some housing estates on the Mainland but smaller than the number of people employed by some corporations, the degree of mismanagement, incompetence, back door deals, and sheer corruption is quite astounding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Says you, but based on what? A few high profile cases? My daily life isn't actually all that affected by corruption as far as I can tell? The Richard Corkill thing, if true will cost me what, a quid of tax? Woot. The Mount Murray business cost a lot more, but then we have the planning reforms as a result at least. What else? Where else have I been crapped on rog?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now this bit really did make me laugh - a lot. On an island of only 70k souls there have only been a few high profile cases of corruption. Well, that's all right then!

 

Are you kidding?????? Your "nice" little island is making news in UK broadsheets for all the wrong reasons. The broadsheets that is, not gutter rags like The Rail. Think that will attract investment? Think again.

 

Personally, despite exercising my right to criticise what I don't approve of, I can't think of anywhere else that I would prefer to raise my family, knowing that they will receive a good education, be looked after by a fairly decent health service and, most of all, be allowed to play outside without having to fret about whether they are alright every few seconds.

 

The Isle of Man may not be paradise, but it'll do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said and a very very solid point.

 

Geo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may do for you but it won't do for me and others like me. One of the reasons I am no longer there is that the education system is lacking. Another reason I will not be going back is because in my opinion formed from what I have read in the Manx media your 'government' (note deliberate single quotes) is morally and financially corrupt. Mount Murray, Ballacain, MEA etc etc and they are just the ones that have surfaced. It doesn't matter a jot if other governments also have problems because that is no excuse for your politicians to look to behave in the same way.

 

One of your leading elected representatives boldly states on his homepage:

 

"DEMOCRACY 'AT RISK' IN THE WORLD'S OLDEST CONTINUOUS PARLIAMENT"

 

Says it all for me.

-

[happy camper]

What do you see the education system lacking?

[Slim]

At no point does Rog state his info is "heresay and gossip" so have I missed something?

 

It's stuff he's 'heard'. That's heresay, isn't it?

 

As far as I can tell Rog is simply stating that the level is surprising in an alleged Western "democracy" hence the "banana republic" mention. Interestingly a life-long friend of mine recently described the IOM as exactly that - a banana republic.

 

All the quotes again. Look PK, the guy I voted for, got in and is representing me, thats not a "democracy", its a democracy. The fact that a lifelong friend of yours also shares your views doesn't give the idea any more credability in my eyes, sorry.

 

Now this bit really did make me laugh - a lot. On an island of only 70k souls there have only been a few high profile cases of corruption. Well, that's all right then!

 

OK, the only time I've seen corruption officially is mount murray, which was two years ago. Hardly rife as you lot are suggesting.

 

Are you kidding?????? Your "nice" little island is making news in UK broadsheets for all the wrong reasons. The broadsheets that is, not gutter rags like The Rail. Think that will attract investment? Think again.

 

You're talking about the Cheif Ministers arrest? Lets not forget, he's not been charged with anything, so how is that significant?

 

It may do for you but it won't do for me and others like me. One of the reasons I am no longer there is that the education system is lacking. Another reason I will not be going back is because in my opinion formed from what I have read in the Manx media your 'government' (note deliberate single quotes) is morally and financially corrupt. Mount Murray, Ballacain, MEA etc etc and they are just the ones that have surfaced. It doesn't matter a jot if other governments also have problems because that is no excuse for your politicians to look to behave in the same way.

 

It's funny how its the people not living here that form this opinion. The people who aren't seeing the good and positive aspects about our island. It's almost like someone who's bought a BMW and feels it's now his lifelong duty to slag off Mercedes, you're not here, so it all sucks. The three you list, mount murray could be classed as corruption in my book. Ballacain and the MEA are both still in investigation. Ballacains pretty much smallfry in the scheme of things, we're only talking about a few hundred k's. A messup of that value wouldn't even blip the radar in the english press. The MEA we have to wait and see.

 

"DEMOCRACY 'AT RISK' IN THE WORLD'S OLDEST CONTINUOUS PARLIAMENT"

Says it all for me.

 

What does it say to you? It's a quote referring to the same single incident you keep banging on about. A two year old report, a two year old statement. A two year old report that was published in very high profile on the governmnet website for all to see, and is still there today. A two year old report that has resulted in the reform of our planning system, a reform that's still ongoing today.

 

What it says to me is that a mistake was made, and our government is working on sorting things so that mistake has less chance of happening again.

[Billy One Mate]

Slim I would agree with you that corruption isnt widespread on the Island and probably no different than majority of Councils in the UK, but we do seem to cover it up with totally worthless investigations. However what I do believe we suffer from on the Island is total incompetence which is usually compounded by the belief of those running the Island that off Island is best.

 

Examples

 

An Incinerator that is costing the manxtax payer a small fortune to operate because we dont have enough waste.

 

A sewage system that does not work. A fact that was told to the off Island Consultants by one of the tendering contractors for Meary Veg prior to the design being completed.

 

A new hospital that in real terms ignoring the political spin cost some 35 million more than the original budget.

 

A waste disposal system from the creamery that dosent work.

 

A power station that has serious problems with the supplied engins.

 

A refurb of Government Offices that is approx 6 months behind schedule and will cost the taxpayer a further 1 to 1.5 million.

 

I could continue but I am sure you get the gist. We can handle this level of incompetence when money is plentiful but it is my belief that the coffers are running a bit low because of some major over expenditures and for example the completion of the demolition of Summerland has been put on hold with all openings into the building having to be bricked up for safety reasons until money becomes available.

 

We the taxpayer will pay for this level of incompetence. The rise in electric prices is just the start. I have said it before watch your standard of living drop over the next few years.