Questions, Questions, Questions....

[simon]

(Fortunately, I was able to get a second chance through the Open University - with a fair amount of help from the IoM Govt - in the 1990s)

 

The IOM govt paid for me to do my BA and also gave me a living allowance. Despite the fact that a few years earlier I'd flunked out of a HND course without paying back what they'd previously given me.

 

Because this is a small place, I was able to sit down with the then Director of Education and go through the issues. That BA set me up for life. The support of the DOE was a huge boost to my confidence at the time when I was trying to get my act together. Later I also did an MSc (which I funded myself).

 

So I'm hugely grateful to the IOM govt.

 

The island isn't any more corrupt than anywhere else IMO. The fact of this being a small place means that it's much harder for people to get away with it.

 

And if you believe that any 'Freedom Of Information Act' actually makes government transparent then you're just wrong. The bogus info re Iraq, in the months before the war, being a good example.

[Darth Vader]

Er, no. The party choses it's leader and that leader becomes the prime minister. The queen doesn't chose a prime minister. The PM doesn't have to carry out the policies of the people that elected him no more than a Cheif Minister doesn't here. If they want to get re-elected next term they do, that's all.

 

The parties chose a leader and of them the Queen actually invites the party leader with the majority of seats of his/her party elected to the House of Commons to form a Government. If the leader accepts then the Queen does actually in law appoint him as the Prime Minister.

 

If there was a case of equality of seats amongs the parties in the House of Commons then we would have a hung parliament. If such happened the Queen still has the power of Royal pregrogative to choose and appoint one of the leaders if they accept the challenge.

 

The House of Lords is different from the LEGCO because it is a secondary legislative revising chamber. Yet ultimately they cannot block the will of the Commons.

 

LEGCO is different because it is part of the Tynwald which is a third chamber and unelected. LEGCO can therefore block a decision of the House of keys who are democratically elected if they do not agree. Both Tynwald chambers have to agree before a decision is passed.

 

This is quite different from the House of Lords in the UK and therefore renders the Isle of Man parliamentary system not a true democracy.

 

I am not stating my personal views here but just fact.

[Slim]

This is quite different from the House of Lords in the UK and therefore renders the Isle of Man parliamentary system not a true democracy.

I am not stating my personal views here but just fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your right, but it's also a fact that there are two bills in progress relating to legco reform. With regards to the lords, they're still an unelected chamber that has power, albeit a more limited one in recent years.

[Slim]

It's like a dog worrying a bone. I'm getting bored with this and I suspect others are as well. Oh well, one last time unto the breach....

 

Perhaps you could just accept that the government has supporters locally, that theres a great many people who don't think it's fundamentally flawed or riddled with corruption without calling us names?

[Darth Vader]

This is quite different from the House of Lords in the UK and therefore renders the Isle of Man parliamentary system not a true democracy.

I am not stating my personal views here but just fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your right, but it's also a fact that there are two bills in progress relating to legco reform. With regards to the lords, they're still an unelected chamber that has power, albeit a more limited one in recent years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But what concerns me Slim is the fact that the members of the House of Keys voted out of LEGCO Dominic Delaney who was steering a bill for LEGCO reform.

They installed Downie in a secret ballot and it is alleged he voted for himself and I wonder now will a revision of our constitutional situation between the Keys and LEGCO disappear.

 

I really do not think our system is tenable despite reservations I have for the UK House of Lords one.

[Slim]

Your right there too, and to have Downie go on the radio and say he's always 'gone along' with stuff is even more worrying. I don't think these changes can be put off completely though. I hope not anyway.

[Jonty]

The House of Lords is different from the LEGCO because it is a secondary legislative revising chamber. Yet ultimately they cannot block the will of the Commons.

 

LEGCO is different because it is part of the Tynwald which is a third chamber and unelected. LEGCO can therefore block a decision of the House of keys who are democratically elected if they do not agree. Both Tynwald chambers have to agree before a decision is passed.

 

This is quite different from the House of Lords in the UK and therefore renders the Isle of Man parliamentary system not a true democracy.

 

I am not stating my personal views here but just fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Just stating facts?

 

Legco is elected by MHKs who are elected by the public. So there is some mandate from the public, no matter how diluted.

 

The House of Lords has no mandate from anyone.

 

Legco can ONLY DELAY legislation for a maximum of 6 months - then it has to go through. It cannot block, or overthrow.

 

House of Lords can block, overturn, prevaricate for years if they feel like it, until the exceptional measure of invoking the Parliament Act is used - three times in the last sixty years I believe.

 

House of Keys, Legco and Tynwald are by any definition far more democratic than the British Parliament.

 

(Apart from mortgage relief, student fees and expenses, amonst many advantages here, another example is that my 80 year old mother gets £50 per week more pension than her similarly aged sister living in the UK) Worth waiting for hey?

[Darth Vader]

Legco can ONLY DELAY legislation for a maximum of 6 months - then it has to go through. It cannot block, or overthrow.

 

I was referring to parliamentary orders distinct from legislation in my post.

 

 

House of Lords can block, overturn, prevaricate for years if they feel like it, until the exceptional measure of invoking the Parliament Act is used - three times in the last sixty years I believe.

 

And that proves that the elected house has sway.

 

Please do not get me wrong. I am not against a legislative revising chamber but I am against the power that LEGCO has in a third Chamber unique to the IOM.... Tynwald.

 

Such orders made by Tynwald which the LEGCO can block are made by the cabinet or Privy Council in the UK. And the Lords have no say in such.

 

That is the fundimental difference. While the UK system is not perfect and not fully democratic, the Manx Tynwald falls short of what I regard as democracy. Even though the Keys elect the members of LEGCO in a secret ballot which in itself is quite wrong for an open transparent "democracy" it is nevertheless not a democratic Upper House considering its powers over the third chamber.

 

The main point here is the House of Lords cannot overturn a major parliamentary decision made by the executive but on the Isle of Man in Tynwald the equivalent LEGCO can.

 

And once appointed they are answerable to none.

 

This is a good debate and I wish someone to prove me wrong in my concept.

[Declan]

I don't think the Island is more democratic than Britain.

 

Over there you vote for an individual MP, yes, but he is part of a wider team. You broadly know what you are voting for. You probably don't agree with all the policies of any party but you find the best fit, and vote for it. You also know who will be the head of Government if your side are successful, and generally speaking who will fill the ministerial positions - the important roles where large proportion of the decisions are made.

 

Here on the other hand, unless you lived in Onchan or Ayre at the last election, all the candidates say roughly the same things. In Rushen, for example, all the candidate paid lip service to housing, economic stability and diversification, and health services for the South. So you are left with a gut feeling of who you think will do the best job. (Although, the answer to the question "Are you now or have you ever been Pam Crowe?" certainly thinned out the candidates.)

 

But it is worse than that. Because the ministers that run the important departments are appointed by the CM and the CM isn't elected until after the election by the MHK's. And can you get the candidates to tell you who they'll support for CM if elected?

 

So you never really know if you are voting for change or the status quo. You only have to look at the campaign across where the opposition parties are focusing on Blair's trustworthiness to see that the identity of the Head of Government is a major issue when deciding how to vote.

 

How can it be democratic if you don't know how your vote will effect how the Island is run?

[Jack from Laxey]

...Although, the answer to the question "Are you now or have you ever been Pam Crowe?" certainly thinned out the candidates

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More to the point, try finding more than a handful of people who will answer "yes" to the question "did you vote for Pam Crowe".

 

 

The Isle of Man - a microcosm of a working democracy at its finest.

[glug]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Will I get this wrong.

 

Mrs Ned gets charged with the minimum charge possible resulting in a conditional discharge and Neddy gets a Police caution

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't believe this at the time but did you really know this might happen?

[Observer]

It pays not to be too complacent with Crumlins Crystal Ball.

 

(Brace yourself for the jokes.....)

[kellyiom]

I'm not going to really add anything to this except say that since joining this forum, I hadn't realised that there were others like Vader, Roger, PK, FCMR and Crumlin who share a common goal of seeing this corruption uncovered. I can see why they get some stick; life here is very good and we are lucky, but couldn't it be better? so I am going to refrain from fuelling it and do something about it. tara for now