Cut School Leaving Age To 14, Says Sir Chris Woodhead

[wheels]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15146240

The school leaving age should be cut to 14, a former chief inspector of schools in England has said.

 

Sir Chris Woodhead told the Times that this would give less academic students a better chance of learning a trade.

 

Arguably a retrograde step

It might well please kids who don't want to be in school but I would suggest there is a significant downside.

Would the available volume of 'apprenticeships' and 'craft based training' be able to meet demand?

[Chinahand]

What an indictment of the UK education system!

 

Anyone aged 14 is still going to need years of educating to provide them the skills to perform in a modern economy.

 

If schools, academies, technical colleges etc can't provide those skills there is something seriously wrong.

 

Is Woodhead a raving libertarian assuming companies will fill the void created by the state's failure?

 

Skills are a public good - its rare that they aren't transferable. That makes it easy for companies to poach rather than train. As a result its likely the state will always have a significant role in it as the market solutions aren't stable.

 

People need to be trained and learn - that means a broad, flexible education system to provide skills appropriately.

 

Certainly forcing people to be over academic is no solution - but compulsory training well beyond 14 is still needed no matter what the truants think.

 

The UK labour force is no panacea and needs to upgrade its skills; and maths and english skills are a bedrock of that.

[Slim]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...cation-15146240

The school leaving age should be cut to 14, a former chief inspector of schools in England has said.

 

In a rising unemployment situation? Daft.

[Libran90]

What happened to keeping children in school till they were 18..?

 

Not many places employ people under the age of 16..?

[the general]

What happened to keeping children in school till they were 18..?

 

Not many places employ people under the age of 16..?

 

That's because the rules for employing under 16 year olds is very strict on amount of hours etc

[Freggyragh]

I agree that anyone leaving school at 14 will need years of educating to provide them with the skills required for the modern economy, and for socializing, and for personal growth. I don't necessarily agree that schools are the best place for this. Some people get a lot out of schooling, and others don't. Some people come back to education years after opting out. Think about what courses are available for pupils in the modern school system - a lot of it is irrelevant to a significant chunk of the teenage population, and will never be revisited in adulthood. A lot of people would learn more about maths, science, design, geography, and even history and English, stay fitter, socialize better, and be keener to take up lifelong learning by taking up a trade apprenticeship early, rather than dawdle along in classes that they don't see the point of.

[Slim]

I agree that anyone leaving school at 14 will need years of educating to provide them with the skills required for the modern economy, and for socializing, and for personal growth. I don't necessarily agree that schools are the best place for this. Some people get a lot out of schooling, and others don't. Some people come back to education years after opting out. Think about what courses are available for pupils in the modern school system - a lot of it is irrelevant to a significant chunk of the teenage population, and will never be revisited in adulthood. A lot of people would learn more about maths, science, design, geography, and even history and English, stay fitter, socialize better, and be keener to take up lifelong learning by taking up a trade apprenticeship early, rather than dawdle along in classes that they don't see the point of.

 

That sounds like an argument for improved vocational training/schooling at age 14 than allowing kids to leave early. Having just decided on my daughters GCSE options I agree with his points that there's no point teaching textiles and drama to someone who's almost certainly going to become a brickie, but throwing them into the job market at 14 will make economics drive their education which isn't always a great idea. Something in-between, vocational training alongside traditional schooling would make more sense.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Should schools be training kids for the workplace? What is the role of the Secondary School?

 

My understanding of schooling is that you have children educated so they learn various subjects to increase their knowledge and understanding of the world. Secondary schools build on that knowledge. I am not a fan of the school regime that leads to maintains blind obedience and think far more freedom should be given to children to choose what they want to learn. But the idea of having schools as training camps for the workplace isn't what school education should be about.

 

Certainly forcing people to be over academic is no solution - but compulsory training well beyond 14 is still needed no matter what the truants think.

I can see the merits of compulsory education for young people who are too young to know what is in their interest. Compulsory training for older children is an awful idea.

Regardless of how well the private sector can accommodate training and deplores the fact that people aren't prepared for the strange artificial social environments and specific tasks of many workplaces, private industry can fork out for what they need.

[Slim]

Should schools be training kids for the workplace? What is the role of the Secondary School?

 

My understanding of schooling is that you have children educated so they learn various subjects to increase their knowledge and understanding of the world. Secondary schools build on that knowledge. I am not a fan of the school regime that leads to maintains blind obedience and think far more freedom should be given to children to choose what they want to learn. But the idea of having schools as training camps for the workplace isn't what school education should be about.

 

That's exactly what schools are, training for work. There's an argument that says it's outdated, that the uniformed lines of students is preparation for factory jobs that no longer exist. Current curriculum's have adapted a bit, with subjects like media studies, design, ICT, economics aimed straight at jobs following school.

 

 

Compulsory training for older children is an awful idea.

Regardless of how well the private sector can accommodate training and deplores the fact that people aren't prepared for the strange artificial social environments and specific tasks of many workplaces, private industry can fork out for what they need.

 

A baffling post, as usual. What's the difference between training and what happens in school already? I wasn't suggesting they go to the private sector for training, but that they learn more vocational skills at school and drop some of the less appropriate stuff.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

That's exactly what schools are, training for work.

I was going to explain why I disagreed. But it might be better to think how you believe that school TRAIN people for work. How do you see courses such as home economics, history, geography, the sciences, etc fitting into your understanding. These are all very distinct subjects. If it were true that schools are training for work then it would have been blindingly obvious, as long time ago, to have people choose the subjects they wanted.

 

I see a difference between training and educating/learning. I don't see how I got training in school. When I went to work in a store and in an office there was nothing about the knowledge learned at secondary school that trained for the work. Even most of the knowledge learned was not relevant.

 

I think there is a bad understanding that is common in society that learning should be based on utility and especially its utility in the workplace. It is understandable when people's welfare and the course of their life is unfortunately subject to competition in the workplace and the size of wage they can command.

At least schools safeguard against the problems with this to some degree.

It is already bad enough at present when so many have little idea about science, history, art, economics.

[Jonny_be_good]

Current curriculum's have adapted a bit, with subjects like media studies, design, ICT, economics aimed straight at jobs following school.

 

Im sorry Slim, but I have to disagree. I do not think that these subjects lead directly to jobs following high school. These subjects require extensive study at a higher level of education before entering the workplace (in these fields) becomes an option.

 

I have to agree with La_Dolce_Vita. If schools were training people for work, the subjects taught would be more relevant to particular industry sectors.

 

Schools provide children with a basic knowledge of the world. This is designed to allow them to make informed decisions about their future lives... working or not. Most schools push children towards higher education where the breaking down of these subjects into their industry specific sections takes place. These university level courses then prepare young people for the workplace.

 

Unfortunately the GCSE leavers (IMO) are left under-prepared for a working life. Fortunately the trades (apprenticeships), retail and the finance sector on the isle of man tend to soak them up and begin their training.

 

I wish my schooling had taught me one lesson: Learn something… anything… and become the best at it you can possibly be (a specialist). That way you will stand the best chance of always being able to make money!

[Cronky]

Here is what the public thought in the response to the:

'Department of Education & Children - Consultation on how well educational provision prepares students for the workplace'

 

http://www.gov.im/li...onresponses.pdf

 

 

According to DED: ‘There is a general perception amongst employers that school leavers are ill-prepared, lack motivation and a willingness to work’. DED also noted that: ‘Fewer young people have parttime jobs during their latter school years, which means they have little understanding of the requirements of employers, or the efforts required of them. In general, employability skills are also perceived as poor’. Lezayre Commissioners commented: ‘Lack of work ethic, poor communication skills, lack of enthusiasm’. A secondary school recognised: ‘lack of readiness for work/maturity’. Other respondents made similar points: ‘lack of motivation’, ‘seen as less reliable’, ‘lack of maturity’, ‘poor attitude to work’, ‘they are so immature around adults, they have little attention spans, they have no energy for a full days work’, ‘lack of experience and confidence’.

 

 

 

 

Obviously that's not all school leavers but it's still pretty hard criticism. For what it's worth I hear the same complaints about school leavers in England. But then, that's hardly surprising because the Manx Curriculum is little more than the English National curriculum re-branded. I know the Department say they do things differently in practice that amounts to no more than tinkering around the edges.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I wish my schooling had taught me one lesson: Learn something… anything… and become the best at it you can possibly be (a specialist). That way you will stand the best chance of always being able to make money!

But then you might have ended up doing business studies and not caring about anything else.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Why does anyone think that schooling should be able preparing people for the workplace anyway? What is REALLY required for the general workplace?

 

Interviewing technique?

 

I can understand when all people complain about poor knowledge on general matters and poor reading or writing skills. But the issues that the private sector have are THEIR problem. There seems to be pressure to tinker with the school regime (an regime that already teaches a particular form of stupidity and obedience) so make people even more mentally weird for the more hierarchical and artificial social regime of the office.

I don't like that idea.

[SJR]

Basically if you cannot read and write properly at 14 then there is no hope for you.Far too much money is wasted on education for those who do not want it.Get these kids out and trained to be whatever they want to be - fishermen,farmers plumbers etc but give them support.Cut back the lavish spending on Primary Schools - no teachers assistants,no pre-school for under 5's,teachers to actually look after the kids at breaktimes (which is why they have 13 weeks holidays) cutting out the need for extra staff and all schools to remain open until 5 PM, so that working mothers can work and those that do not work have no excuse for bumping up daytime TV figures.