Mr Houghton And Manual Workers Debate

[Darth Vader]

if you really believe in Democracy then you have to accept that the guy cleaning the streets has as much right to stand for election as the local advocate.

Agreed.

 

They are critised by the public (including me) for being out of touch with the 'man in the street' but critisized for being a former 'man on the street'*

 

No executive will stand for election unless they are crazy enough to take a pay cut and increase their personal hassle levels ten fold.

 

The only way to get a half decent standard of candidate being elected is for the public to take more interest in political life and demand better representation from their candidates.

 

*or woman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well said Ripsaw.

 

But how the hell do we get the public of whatever age interested in the policy and not the person?

 

Answer = party politics

 

Until we have collective party groupings we will never progress and more importantly the 20 to 30 year olds will not have an incentive. I mention that age group because it is they who are the wealth creators and earners who pay the most tax to supposedly protect the rest of us.

 

And this present Manx Government is shafting these young ones with their housing policies etc.

 

And due to no party politics we are faced with a Government policy that none of us has voted for because we never elected it.

 

We only elected the individual "nice man" who basically can achieve absolutely SFA.

[manxman8180]

And this present Manx Government is shafting these young ones with their housing policies etc.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unquestionably they should carry some blame. But not just them. The Government(s) of 20 years previous obviously showed little or no foresight either.

[Declan]

Can something be a syndrome and a disease?

[Darth Vader]

I agree.

 

Edited to stress agreement with manxman's point.

[Darth Vader]

Can something be a syndrome and a disease?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Declan,

 

I think our present parliamentary set up called Tynwald is a disease.

 

a thousand years old and past the sell by date.

 

A bloody disgrace to true democracy.

[Slim]

If they aren't and are just put there by default then they should give give the same % rise they vote to give themselves to those who do the all important work of ...saving lives,making sure roads are safe, support staff in education, etc etc

 

So the MHK's have had too large a pay rise, not the manual workers rise isn't enough?

 

Is Mr Bell an economist?

Does Mr Gelling hold any relevant qualification for management?

Did Mr Cretney hold any qualifications for Tourism and Leisure?

 

That's not quite how it works. The Ministers are elected representatives to head up those departments. There are civil cervants underneath them who are qualified. The Ministers sit with the public mandate but wont make the technical decisions.

 

The Island...my homeland... has been brought to its knees through bad management and through a lack of education of those in high places.

 

In what way do you think the Island is on its knees? Uneployment? Growth? Social Services? Utilities? I can't think of any area where the island is failing at the moment. Planning/housing perhaps the only one, and some sectors of industry like farming and manufacturing, but that's a UK wide problem.

 

A man with qualifications in Law and management should be a leader or Chief Minister

Qualified professional economists should run the economy.

 

Then we must vote for them!

 

Highly Qualified Teachers should run education authorities

A surgeon or highly qualified Doctors should run Health services  etc etc

 

Highly skilled people are usually pretty bad at running things. Skilled people tend to do stuff instead. Kind of a waste to have a surgeon hiring and firing people.

 

As for my rant...I am allowed to rant....I live in a free Country...your forefathers saw to that... A Hitler and his theory of World dominance and for us the killing of that absurd army through all means necessary......two wrongs don't make a right?  mmmm let me think ...if that was the attitude 60 odd years ago you wouldn't have much freedom at all mate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Course your allowed a rant, same as I'm allowed to disagree with it. Not sure how you see world war ii as 'two wrongs'. The allies didn't exactly do wrong in the way the Nazi's did!

[Slim]

Envy has nothing to do with this subject ans. It is a matter of moral fairness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's got nothing to do with morals, it's about economics. If the manual workers deserve a payrise above what everyone else is getting, it needs to be justified for them. 'Because the MHKs' got one isn't a reason.

[Declan]

Can something be a syndrome and a disease?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Declan,

 

I think our present parliamentary set up called Tynwald is a disease.

 

a thousand years old and past the sell by date.

 

A bloody disgrace to true democracy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Good to see you've got that Friday feeling.

[Ripsaw]

I don't support Party Politics for reasons expressed in another thread (too lazy to find and link).

 

I guess it is like many aspects of life, when happy we (the voting population) sit back and only become vocal when something is wrong.

 

(I can not think of a better reply at the moment )

[WilDDog]

Does Mr Gelling hold any relevant qualification for management?

Did Mr Cretney hold any qualifications for Tourism and Leisure?

 

Mr Mad, In the Government Department I work for it seems qualifications to do a managerial post are none existant. It also seems that most of the managers in this department are persons that have either never done the job or have been in the right place at the right time or have known someone in the know to get were they are.

A managers point of view is "you don't have to be qualified or know the job/task in hand to manage".

It's the way of the world I'm afraid and not just exclusive to our politicians or to this Island.

[Ripsaw]

The Ministers are elected representatives to head up those departments. There are civil cervants underneath them who are qualified. The Ministers sit with the public mandate but wont make the technical decisions.

I agree with that and would add (in my opinion) the Civil Servants make the decisions, the MHKs are there elected by the people to ensure that it is the right decisions that make it into everyday life FOR the people. They are more like Middle Men (or women)

[Slim]

Vader, the amount of ill considered drivel you sprout is really quite amazing.

 

No executive will stand for election unless they are crazy enough to take a pay cut and increase their personal hassle levels ten fold.

 

...Which is why you see a fair few retired folks standing.

 

But how the hell do we get the public of whatever age interested in the policy and not the person?

Answer = party politics

 

That's hilarious. You think the British public are going to vote in the masses because of their party system? Not going to happen, people just can't be bothered. They've been at work all day, and East Enders is on....

 

Until we have collective party groupings we will never progress and more importantly the 20 to 30 year olds will not have an incentive. I mention that age group because it is they who are the wealth creators and earners who pay the most tax to supposedly protect the rest of us.

 

For a start, you need more than parties to interest that age group. Secondly, where on earth do you get 20-30 year olds down as the biggest taxpayers? The lowest earners are the highest tax? How does that work?

 

And this present Manx Government is shafting these young ones with their housing policies etc.

 

How? By providing them with first time buyers grants and schemes? That'll bugger them!

 

We only elected the individual "nice man" who basically can achieve absolutely SFA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Peter Karran achieved rather a lot with the Mount Murray, didn't he?

 

You know there are Manx parties don't you? The labour party has what, 10% of the house? APG has 20%?

 

I'm not bothered about parties, I think the population is small enough that I can make my mind up by comparing the candidates policys than the parties policies. You've got to remember the house of commons is a big house, there's 600 odd seats to contest. You need parties to get the majorities to make a difference. What's Keys? 24 members? Each member has much more of a chance to effect change.

[mrmad]

"You are banging on about equality for manual workers and yet you also say that only lawyers, teachers, accountants and managers should hold public office?"

 

What I am suggesting here is that here is that they should suitably qualified for the job. These MHK's are employed by me and all the other people who pay taxes. Therefore they should be able to do the job. If you ran your own company would you employ and pay someone 50 odd grand a year for a job they weren't qualified to do? If the ordinary man on the street decides to be given the chance to be elected and employed by the taxpayer he should have the adequate education for the job he is to be elected for. He still has the freedom to become educated.

 

Ok put it another way ( ok it is a bit extreme but here goes )...you send your kids to school only to find binmen are now teaching your kids. You decide to see a doctor for the stress this has caused you so you pay a fee because the health service is so badly managed you have to pay to see the doctor. So you pay for your examination and a chimmney sweep turns up and declares you insane. Are you really insane or would the system be wrong?

 

You wouldn't like it would you?

 

It's not a case of envy over money. I go to work, do my job honestly which I am qualified to do and then go home. I then find that due to some muppets who are not qualified to do their jobs make me suffer and make me worse off ( through inflation ) because of mistakes they have made and don't even have the decency to admit they were wrong.

Civil servants only advise....at the end of the day the non educated gamble lies purely in the ministers hands. The consequence is a considerable pay rise for them regardless of outcome.

Whereas the poor old manual worker who has cleared up the roads during and after storms to let the some minister get around safely ( maybe a worker who has voted for the same minister ) is subjected to a below rate of inflation rise. Why should that manual worker care in the future...he's done his best only to be hit in the pocket while the likes of Mr Houghton swagger around council estates on a reputed 50 grand a year.

If it was democratic the public would decide what the inflation rise was...it would also be democratic to let the public decide on MHK pay increases.

Imagine going into work on Monday morning and giving yourself a nice 10 % rise because you feel you made a bad decision at work.....makes me furious.

[mrmad]

"Not sure how you see world war ii as 'two wrongs'. The allies didn't exactly do wrong in the way the Nazi's did! "

In the eyes of the purist ...THEY KILLED...SO WE KILLED THEM...2 wrongs in a way. it's just that we thought we were justified to do so...but so did they.

Our killing of them led to a free World though which is right.

[Slim]

So what do you suggest Mr Mad, we discard democracy entirely? Elections are no longer free for everyone? That candidates be vetted for suitable qualifications before being allowed to stand?

 

The whole point of it is that the MHK's are publicly elected.

 

It's quite interesting that we've just had another discussion about non elected experts in another chamber of government that people object very strongly about because its considered non-democratic.

 

Niether the public or the government decides what inflation is, it's set by the enconomy. The government can only try to control it and often influences it (mea costs for example this year).