Barrie Stevens Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 This is not helped by the producer having such little profit margin to play with. It doesn’t take many wild animals to turn a small profit into a large loss, believe me I've seen it enough times.But there are methods that can be applied, which although expensive, can reduce the population or prevent animals from getting into certain areas. With the farmer responsible for food production on his/her own I appreciate that his situation is extremely difficult, but I have no problem with farmers receiving more support if necessary from the public given their essential and very important role in society in providing food. Non lethal methods of protecting a crop almost always fail, or get to the point where it is counter productive by adding additional costs/losses.What methods are you referring to? There are to many people I do not disagree however restricting or somehow even reversing our population growth wont make it go away any time soon!.I agree. It won't go away soon. I am only stating that the problem of overpopulation and increasing population where intensive farming must be conducted is of our own making. No not hunting, I'm sorry I just assumed you had a problem with any killing of animals, if it was ok to you to kill animals in a way that cant be classed as hunting then you wouldn’t be a vegetarian would you. So as I say who cares, its the same thing to you if I'm not mistaken?.Come again? I would not object to some instances where animals are killed. It depends on the situation. You seem to be confused about where exactly the pleasure in those activities is drawn from. I'll leave it to someone who participates in either to explain for themselves but I suggest you broaden your mind a little and think more than just 'in the killing'. I have to laugh when people suggest these hordes of horse riding toffs would go out and make such an effort just to gain pleasure from killing something!. Come off it.That's not what I think. And I don't believe most think that either. But fox hunting has a characterisation where the presumed necessity of killing the fox is a pleasurable pursuit. How many foxes do you have in the Isle of Man? I live within 600 yards of Chelmsford Prison....We have scores of urban foxes...They can be legally killed and are killed...I live within 30 minutes of "Roses round the door and thatched cottage country" where killing foxes with dogs is a legal problem....PS Foxes make a lot of noise outside of my windows at night...Nothing against foxes but they run like wild dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheels Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Foxes make a lot of noise outside of my windows at night...........they run like wild dogs... Dole bum chavs maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 LDV your skill at introducing anarchist points into virtually any discussion is amazing. We could argue all day long about definitions of words like state, democratic, freedoms etc but it's so easy to justify any action including terrorism if you conveniently dismiss the accepted concept of state, law and democracy. If you don't like any law that 99.999% of the population agree to just say you don't recognise the authority of the state etc etc and, hey, job done! A terrorist might fail to recognise the authority of the state but I can guarantee the reciprocal situation will not apply. But were the subjects to be other human beings, it would be readily recognised as a moral act. Do you think animals have equal right to humans then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Do you think animals have equal right to humans then? A question - why should all animals not have equal rights to human animals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 How many foxes do you have in the Isle of Man? I live within 600 yards of Chelmsford Prison....We have scores of urban foxes...They can be legally killed and are killed...I live within 30 minutes of "Roses round the door and thatched cottage country" where killing foxes with dogs is a legal problem....PS Foxes make a lot of noise outside of my windows at night...Nothing against foxes but they run like wild dogs... None, people have tried and failed to introduce them. The government are very apposed to them becoming established here as the island is like a wild bird sanctuary and the last thing they want is to introduce predators, I believe their biggest concern being for ground nesting birds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 They are only perceived to require control (through killing) because of our food needs, i.e. eggs and chicken meat. Wrong. That isn't enlightening. Why not explain why you disagree. I wouldnt need to if you had bothered to read the link, honetly you will find it very enlightening, and far more factual than simply 'people only hunt because they are sociopaths' etc, like is spouted by the anti hunting nutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 A question - why should all animals not have equal rights to human animals? Another question - why should all animals have equal rights to humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 A question - why should all animals not have equal rights to human animals? Another question - why should all animals have equal rights to humans? I asked first! Actually, it doesn't matter which question is addressed as both lead to the same discussion, which is what I was trying to initiate. Let's start with the fact that humans are just another sort of animal i.e. living creatures. Why should one sort of living creature have different rights to another sort of living creature? Why should they not all be equal in terms of rights? And what are the criteria we should use for establishing what "rights" should be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Do you think animals have equal right to humans then? A question - why should all animals not have equal rights to human animals? Why are you limiting this to animals, why not plants, and micro-organisms - they interact in their environment and contribute to the ecology of the planet just as much. If you wish to protect an ant why not an oak tree? I think it is obvious this way La La land lies. Practically we are aware that we can harvest the bounty of the world, just as other members of the ecosystem do - I would say this interdependence is a defining characteristic of life. We should attempt to keep this ecosystem in balance, and not cause unnecessary suffering, but it is impossible not to interact with our environment. I see little moral dilemma in sustainable farming whether of animal or plant - with nitrogen fixing bacteria et al added to the mix! The fox benefits from our domesticated countryside - making him top predator and free to snack on easy game - the ecological return is that his numbers will be limited by the only predator left to stop his dedregations - us. To hunt with dog or rifle or to poison or to trap and dispatch - all have dilemmas and to claim one is obviously immoral and another acceptable shows a moral certainty I cannot deduce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Rights I think accrue with ability to understand suffering. A cow which munches its food in rural idyl and then is instantly dispatched with a single bolt shot to the head suffers very little for its meat. Factory farming complicates that, and I agree with animal welfare measure - though be aware there is a cost in that. Medical experiments on chimps are a dilemma, but I've read the work of scientists struggling with this, and the protocols they develop to do their research, and it is far far more nuanced than the outrage of extremists who threaten to bomb and kill. LDV - do you really condone the murder of scientists attempting to find a cure for cancer because they use chimps for their work? Your moral certainty at times is disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 We are speaking of animals, China i.e. sentient beings. I do not believe anyone would regard plants and micro-organisms as sentient. Obviously animals are not the only things which interact with the environment - inorganic processes do so as well. If you wish to protect an ant why not an oak tree? Given that an oak tree is a living organism we should indeed treat it with some respect but it is not sentient. I think it is obvious this way La La land lies. No - the whole point is to establish what our attitude to the natural world should be, especially, in this case, to sentient beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 A question - why should all animals not have equal rights to human animals? Another question - why should all animals have equal rights to humans? I asked first! Erm EG, I don't think you did - your post was in reply to a question of BB's - Do you think animals have equal right to humans then? A question - why should all animals not have equal rights to human animals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Erm EG, I don't think you did - your post was in reply to a question of BB's - Slightly different questions, China - BB asked a direct question to LDV asking simply if LDV thought that animals should have equal rights to humans. I asked a more general question about whether animals and humans should have equal rights. Hair splitting? Maybe, but my comment to BB saying "I asked first" was actually no more than an intended slightly humourous comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 We are speaking of animals, China i.e. sentient beings. Well, you are trying to limit it to animals, but my point is that argument becomes problematic - I genuinely do think an oak tree has just as many rights as an ant - just because it is not sentient does not mean we have no responsibility for our exploitation of it. Trying to limit these discussions to a tiny subset of the ecosystem just gets you in pedantic knots. My view is that maintaining a sustainable ecosystem and not driving it too far from its equilibrium is the central debate. That makes sustaining rain forest trees just as important as the animals living in them. Obviously when it comes to suffering I agree with you - but that is only one part of the debate about farming/meat eating/sustaining the earth's ecological environment - which I believe is the wider discussion we are having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I prefer my bacon fried, not sentient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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