Declan Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Cronky - if by prayer should be respect you mean that it is wrong to disrupt it, I agree with you. But that's not the same as imposing prayer at events like school assemblies or Tynwald meetings. It's harmless but it's quite often disrespectfully done as it is taken that everyone there is of a similar mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 To be honest I have no problem with the prayers before council, I am not a Christian but most of the rest of the council are. If we had a muslim member etc then I am sure they could be accomodated as well with in prayers, but we don't so its really a mute point. The church does not get involved in any decisions and does not have any vote etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think you need to make a case for why prayer should not be respected! You appear to think that it should be respected 'over and above' and that's half the problem. I really don't care if anyone is religious in their spare time just like I don't care if they go fishing (thinks of a relatively non-consequential hobby). Why on earth do you think the majority who are not practising christians/muslims etc etc should afford more respect to believers than those with any other self-chosen passtime? It seems so arrogant and self congratulatory to imagine they should! I have no more respect for anyone with whatever faith than those without faith. They just deserve the ordinary respect we should afford to all our fellow human beings, no more and no less.There should be no place in politics for religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I didn't know Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I recall assembly at school in the 60s. I had to go to a classroom with the catholics and jews as a consequence of my atheism. Got to know some very useful people there which stood me in good stead in business due to my understanding of other cultures than the anglo christian one prevelent at the time. Keys and Tynwald start with prayers, if I attend I stand in respect of others but take no active part beyond that. I would like to know why they have a vicar there. He takes no part in the business of the house and frequently leaves the chamber for long breaks. And don't start me on the question of the bishop's role in Tynwald. If you don't believe, avoid, but respect others beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 If you don't believe, avoid, but respect others beliefs. Well you can avoid church and if you don't believe, I would agree that you should. However a Council meeting is not church. I afford the same respect to believers as non-believers. Acting any differently would be affording extra respect just because they are a believer and that is completely unwarranted and unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I didn't know Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Twas a call to both sides of the argument, let them have a little wish before meetings, just not mandatory or part of the proceedings in any official capacity and keep it to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheels Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have no more respect for anyone with whatever faith than those without faith. They just deserve the ordinary respect we should afford to all our fellow human beings, no more and no less.There should be no place in politics for religion. +1 My views entirely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 If you don't believe, avoid, but respect others beliefs. Well you can avoid church and if you don't believe, I would agree that you should. However a Council meeting is not church. I afford the same respect to believers as non-believers. Acting any differently would be affording extra respect just because they are a believer and that is completely unwarranted and unreasonable. I think Cronky was referring more to the beliefs being and behaviours that come with them being deserving of respect and not necessarily the people. He would say that Christian prayer deserves respect, I think it deserves none. Whereas the matter of having respect for the people is quite different. I personally think that anyone showing any sign of praying should be interrupted, maybe through noise disruption. As such as it is seen that anyone is muttering quietly, talking in tongues, or offering gifts to their God the others should step in to make sure that person losing their train of thought. I don't think it is right for politicians to have an unfair advantage if they are praying for a good vote. Nor would I want their God give help to workings of Tynwald, as it is a really poor system. And what if they haven't been honest about their God and their sole intent is to cause mischief by asking a naughty God to help them. The working of Manx Government over the past few years has been criticised. Is this God's fault? Is it time to have his presence removed from the Manx government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 He would say that Christian prayer deserves respect, I think it deserves none. Whereas the matter of having respect for the people is quite different. You should respect their right to pray as that is part and parcel of having respect for people. You may regard their prayers as nonsense but they don't (or shouldn't, if they really do claim to be Christians). I personally think that anyone showing any sign of praying should be interrupted, maybe through noise disruption.As such as it is seen that anyone is muttering quietly, talking in tongues, or offering gifts to their God the others should step in to make sure that person losing their train of thought. Now you are just trolling! I don't think it is right for politicians to have an unfair advantage if they are praying for a good vote.Nor would I want their God give help to workings of Tynwald, as it is a really poor system. But you don't believe in God so how can you imagine their praying to Him will give them any advantage? I think the state of things is actually ample proof that God isn't bothering to assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Respecting someone's right to do something is a different matter to respecting something. You seem to think the word respect has some connection to the matter of rights. How do we know that he is not assisting? He could really dislike the way things are set up here and wants to makes things difficult. Or these Christians might have got it wrong and their invoking something that wants to make mischief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 EG - I think LDV's post #23 was not entirely serious. As to You should respect their right to pray as that is part and parcel of having respect for people Nonsense. They are choosing (probably deliberately) to pray somewhere inappropriate and at an inappropriate time. You will likely disagree so let's take another example of something unreasonable. Let's say the meeting has started and two members decide to chat loudly between themselves. Should we respect their right to do that and is not allowing it disrespect? Of course not and of course it it isnt!!!: Let them pray somewhere private or in church on the way there should they feel the need for god's guidance or whatever in the impending meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Evil Goblin, if someone insisted on asking the "Wee Little People" to guide the council wisely and sprinkle their good luck dust over the proceedings should everyone respectfully sit there while they do it? How about a councillor who insisted a horoscope was cast to ensure the diarising of any events fitted with the influences of the stars and planets - please note Nancy Reagan did actually require this at times during the Regan Presidency. Quite simply these activities have no place in a council meeting and neither do prayers to a God. If people of a religion or any other belief wish to gather prior to a meeting to go through their rituals then that is their private business. But to do it during Council time is inappropriate and wasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 If the majority vote to have prayers, as they can, then surely democracy should rule. After all, they are there to uphold democracy are they not? And if you don't like democracy in action, well, you are free to leave at any time. I did note with some cynicism that this issue was raised only after matey-boy had been elbowed out by his constituents. I mean, if he felt that strongly about it why didn't he do anything about it while he was a part of it? Sour grapes? The very idea.... As to Mr C's nonsense about it being wasteful of time I can assure him that praying for a successful outcome is probably a better use of time than a vast amount of the so-called "debate" that will undoubtedly follow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Do you specifically mean a situation where the electorate votes as to whether MHKs or MPs, or councillors can pray at a meeting? It doesn't matter whether the people attending the meeting vote or not on such a thing when considering the importance of democracy. As an aside, democracy is a very important and necessary thing when it means popular government, but simply majoritarian would be a dreadful thing to have. It would cause all sorts of problems and the outcome in many cases would not be best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Did the majority vote for prayers then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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