manshimajin Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If the MEA is operating with 41% spare capacity then they can hardly expect us all to almost double our power usage just to make up the shortfall, just as they cannot expect us to not the utilise viable renewable alternatives as opposed to stomaching increases in prices. It goes against every principle of a free economy. No matter how much in debt the MEA they cannot force us to pay for their mistakes. The trouble Jazze is the we ARE paying for their mistakes - through our electricity bills. The less they sell the more per unit we will have to pay to cover the debt servicing and repayment. The debt costs are fixed costs, the charges to consumers vary according to how much the MEA sells. My underlying point is that there is little incentive for either the government or the MEA to encourage home generation when there is so much over-capacity and a huge debt. Right or wrong I think that is the realpolitik of the situation. Remember that Bell subsidised MEA consumers just before the last election by pumping in several £millions to the MEA to stop them increasing the tariffs. I assume that he feels power charges are politically sensitive. The IOM is in a very different position on the economics of power generation than the UK due to the mistakes made funding MEA expansion/modernisation. I don't like it - but I don't think one can ignore it. As for the 15/15 target cynical me thinks that if Bell is approached by certain types of investors he will push it irrespective of its impacts on costs to business and consumers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazze Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 I just don't believe that the two, electricity bills and investment in renewable technologies, are as intrinsically linked as you perceive them to be. At least not in the long term. When thinking about our future sources of electricity and fuel we would be fools to believe that by supporting the MEA now by having them as the islands sole provider of power and not encouraging homeowners to generate their own electricity etc. that somehow this would make our energy bills lower in the long term. The fact of the matter is that both oil and gas prices are going to continue to increase in price and if the entire manx population is reliant on fossil fuels supplied by the MEA then we will be paying substantially more than our UK counterparts who have invested in renewables, regardless of if the MEA is still in debt or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Jazze I am just putting my gloomy thoughts on the reality of the financial situation that the mismanagement of the MEA has created. There is no incentive for a government to support domestic renewables when it has allowed its state owned electricity generation company to acquire massive debts (which will run for about 20 more years) in order to build generating capacity that is massively over and above what is needed here (and I am not counting the other white elephant the incinerator). No doubt the wrong policy but it is in place unlike in the UK where there is a potential shortfall in generation capacity which makes investing in renewables, domestic and commercial, more attractive. I agree with comments that it seems strange (at least) that you have to pay a penalty for creating your own self sufficiency in energy production. Just trying to put in a cautionary note that the economics of power generation on the Island, as created by the IOMG and the MEA, militate against a liberal view of renewables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Runner Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If we must have a policy to get 15% of our power by renewables rather than spending more money we have not got on wind-farms no one wants. Why not just buy some renewable generated electricity from one of the many UK wind-farm operators and import it via the interconector cable? It may be more per unit to buy but I bet it will be a dam sight cheaper than building our own wind-farms what with the NIMBY planning rows for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 So what do we do about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 So what do we do about it? Any ideas Lxxx? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 How do they bill you if you aren't using any of their energy? If you have (hypothetically speaking) installed an independant, self-sufficient energy source for your household how do they extract money out of you for the energy you aren't using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitantDogOwner Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 How do they bill you if you aren't using any of their energy? If you have (hypothetically speaking) installed an independant, self-sufficient energy source for your household how do they extract money out of you for the energy you aren't using. Are home energy supplies that capable that you can become completley self sufficeint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 How do they bill you if you aren't using any of their energy? If you have (hypothetically speaking) installed an independant, self-sufficient energy source for your household how do they extract money out of you for the energy you aren't using. Are home energy supplies that capable that you can become completley self sufficeint? They managed it in the Bronze Age !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitantDogOwner Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 How do they bill you if you aren't using any of their energy? If you have (hypothetically speaking) installed an independant, self-sufficient energy source for your household how do they extract money out of you for the energy you aren't using. Are home energy supplies that capable that you can become completley self sufficeint? They managed it in the Bronze Age !!! Yeah, unfortunately, Bronze Age man did not have an Xbox, PC, TV, Surround Sound, etc, etc to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc & Tricia Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Self sufficient? Answer is yes - financial viability = no. A shame I know but unless someone is prepared to tie up their money for say 10+ years then they would be better investing elsewhere - and this really goes against the grain for me as someone who works in this industry but the truthful answer is the best one. The solution is to amend MEA policy without any real detrimental effect to their revenue and there is a solution - it just takes time. Anyone with the ultimate solution would be good to hear from. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Self sufficient? Answer is yes - financial viability = no. A shame I know but unless someone is prepared to tie up their money for say 10+ years then they would be better investing elsewhere - and this really goes against the grain for me as someone who works in this industry but the truthful answer is the best one. The solution is to amend MEA policy without any real detrimental effect to their revenue and there is a solution - it just takes time. Anyone with the ultimate solution would be good to hear from. Marc This is my point Marc. If money were no object but someone wanted to make their home 100% self sustainable using a variety of renewable and alternative/basic energy sources then how do they extract money from you if the household had no need to be tied to the grid? At what point do they extract this 'penalty' for energy that you are not using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 This is my point Marc. If money were no object but someone wanted to make their home 100% self sustainable using a variety of renewable and alternative/basic energy sources then how do they extract money from you if the household had no need to be tied to the grid? At what point do they extract this 'penalty' for energy that you are not using? I did some numbers with my brother on installing PV panels and feeding into the UK Grid - based on the higher tariff for doing that a few years ago. By the time you factored in the cost of the panels (loan repayment or loss on capital earnings), the fact that you had to retain power for yourself, the life expectancy of the panels etc etc... it really did not work as a financial proposition. It only worked on the basis that you say Lxxx - that you do it because you want to do it and are willing to accept the economic downside. I would have thought that it might be very difficult to equitably assess how much MEA energy you are not using if you are entirely self sufficient. Do they use a rule of thumb guesstimate? Marc when you say "The solution is to amend MEA policy without any real detrimental effect to their revenue and there is a solution - it just takes time." what do you see as that solution? The debt is massive for a small Island community, it goes on for a long time, we are probably never going to use anything like the output from the MEA locally (and it is not a good environmental argument to up the output for export), plus the fact that people are doing more and more to reduce domestic electricity demand with insulation, double glazing, lower energy machines, low energy lighting and switching things off. Not trying to be negative - if there is a solution to the MEA's financial problems and their impact on all of us it would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey boy Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Self sufficient? Answer is yes - financial viability = no. A shame I know but unless someone is prepared to tie up their money for say 10+ years then they would be better investing elsewhere - and this really goes against the grain for me as someone who works in this industry but the truthful answer is the best one. The solution is to amend MEA policy without any real detrimental effect to their revenue and there is a solution - it just takes time. Anyone with the ultimate solution would be good to hear from. Marc This is my point Marc. If money were no object but someone wanted to make their home 100% self sustainable using a variety of renewable and alternative/basic energy sources then how do they extract money from you if the household had no need to be tied to the grid? At what point do they extract this 'penalty' for energy that you are not using? They don't as such even with grid tied systems- aslong as you don't want to export too much back to the grid. I think the point is they don't subsidise any kind of power made from home generation, which could be considered as a charge. If I had the money or the inclination to start generating electricity at home I wouldn't grid tie it anyway. That'll learn the buggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Self sufficient? Answer is yes - financial viability = no. A shame I know but unless someone is prepared to tie up their money for say 10+ years then they would be better investing elsewhere - and this really goes against the grain for me as someone who works in this industry but the truthful answer is the best one. The solution is to amend MEA policy without any real detrimental effect to their revenue and there is a solution - it just takes time. Anyone with the ultimate solution would be good to hear from. Marc This is my point Marc. If money were no object but someone wanted to make their home 100% self sustainable using a variety of renewable and alternative/basic energy sources then how do they extract money from you if the household had no need to be tied to the grid? At what point do they extract this 'penalty' for energy that you are not using? They don't as such even with grid tied systems- aslong as you don't want to export too much back to the grid. I think the point is they don't subsidise any kind of power made from home generation, which could be considered as a charge. If I had the money or the inclination to start generating electricity at home I wouldn't grid tie it anyway. That'll learn the buggers. So if the only penalty is the lack of subsidy then what is to stop a group of reasonably well off people who all live close to each other trying to make their area self sufficient and sharing the costs, with any excess electricity being pumped to each others homes as opposed to back to the 'grid', so they don't have to play the extortionate game the manx government and the MEA have concocted betweek themselves?? Of course I am no technical expert and this may all prove too complicated in practice to set up and maintain, but it's a nice thought, if nothing else to stick two fingers up at the whole scammed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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