Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 10 hours ago, John Wright said: The point is, no payment unless accepted. The standard will be an English law clause and a London arbitration clause. South Korea has signed up to the Treaty covering recognition and enforcement of foreign arbitration awards. Of course the yard will stick to any arbitration award - no one will place new order if it didn’t. I might be wrong, and I often am but isn't using something deemed as acceptance. Its always been so in my field. You can either accept something by testing it then using it. Or you can use it and that's deeming acceptance but you can't use it but not accept it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 6 minutes ago, Happier diner said: I might be wrong, and I often am but isn't using something deemed as acceptance. Its always been so in my field. You can either accept something by testing it then using it. Or you can use it and that's deeming acceptance but you can't use it but not accept it. Not really. You can take, and drive, a car, for instance, for a reasonable, but short, period and then reject. The contracts and law relating to shipbuilding are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, John Wright said: Not really. You can take, and drive, a car, for instance, for a reasonable, but short, period and then reject. The contracts and law relating to shipbuilding are different. Can you? Its got nothing to do with cars. Cars are off the shelf and built to a pattern specification. A ship is bespoke. Wouldn't that be a test drive anyway? You cant test a new car anyway. Bit like a sea trial? Not sure! I am off up to Jacksons this afternoon and going to ask if I can have a new Aston to use for a few days. If I like it I'll pay for it. You can only reject a car if it does not do what it is supposed to do. Its not easy then because you have to give the dealer reasonable opportunity to make it right. You cannot reject a car because you don't like it. If you bought a ship the only grounds you would have is if there were faults you might be able to withhold a retention. If it was really bad you could not reject it. You would have to demonstrate a latent defect Maybe stick to criminal law? You are way off this time Edited April 21, 2023 by Happier diner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Happier diner said: Can you? Its got nothing to do with cars. Cars are off the shelf and built to a pattern specification. A ship is bespoke. Wouldn't that be a test drive anyway? You cant test a new car anyway. Bit like a sea trial? Not sure! I am off up to Jacksons this afternoon and going to ask if I can have a new Aston to use for a few days. If I like it I'll pay for it. Maybe stick to criminal law? I never mentioned not paying. I mentioned rejecting. You can reject after payment, delivery and use, if it’s not fit for purpose or doesn’t meet description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 7 minutes ago, John Wright said: I never mentioned not paying. I mentioned rejecting. You can reject after payment, delivery and use, if it’s not fit for purpose or doesn’t meet description. You can reject it sure. But you have already paid. Rejecting it does not guarantee you get you money back. Thats similar to buying a car. https://www.cliffordchance.com/content/dam/cliffordchance/briefings/2016/12/shipbuilding-contracts-tips-and-traps.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, Happier diner said: You can reject it sure. But you have already paid. Rejecting it does not guarantee you get you money back. Thats similar to buying a car. https://www.cliffordchance.com/content/dam/cliffordchance/briefings/2016/12/shipbuilding-contracts-tips-and-traps.pdf I’m responding to your claim that using = acceptance. That’s not correct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ativa Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 I don’t believe I have ever met the people discussing the Steam Packets potential contract. Having had many interactions with Lars over the last couple of decades and knowing his experience in the area which goes way beyond the purchase of a single poxy little boat for here, I am happy to assume he has it covered and that rambling on here about it is a waste of time and effort . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Wright said: I’m responding to your claim that using = acceptance. That’s not correct. I was saying you can't use it without paying for it. Maybe we are saying the same thing. Yes you can attempt to reject anything but you are far from guaranteed to be successful. It seems shipbuilding has more similarities to buying something than it is to construction. I do see that. Edited April 21, 2023 by Happier diner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 Just now, Ativa said: I don’t believe I have ever met the people discussing the Steam Packets potential contract. Having had many interactions with Lars over the last couple of decades and knowing his experience in the area which goes way beyond the purchase of a single poxy little boat for here, I am happy to assume he has it covered and that rambling on here about it is a waste of time and effort . Perhaps you are right. But Forums are for rambling otherwise we wouldn't have them. Its a good way to learn stuff. Especially when we have a resident lawyer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 28 minutes ago, Happier diner said: It seems shipbuilding has more similarities to buying something than it is to construction. I do see that. Yes, and no. There is likely to be a long and complicated written contract in shipbuilding. That’s similar to building construction. However it’s likely to be subject to Sale of Goods Act if there is an English law clause. I often wonder what would have happened if the NorWest Holst first time buyers had all clubbed together and rejected ( even after living there for several years ) when it was found the blocks weren’t fit for purpose and their homes were falling down. Of course they had the balance of the home builders guarantee. And, of course, once you’ve taken delivery the onus is on you to prove that any rejection is on justified grounds and not just a claim for damages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, John Wright said: Yes, and no. There is likely to be a long and complicated written contract in shipbuilding. That’s similar to building construction. However it’s likely to be subject to Sale of Goods Act if there is an English law clause. I often wonder what would have happened if the NorWest Holst first time buyers had all clubbed together and rejected ( even after living there for several years ) when it was found the blocks weren’t fit for purpose and their homes were falling down. Of course they had the balance of the home builders guarantee. And, of course, once you’ve taken delivery the onus is on you to prove that any rejection is on justified grounds and not just a claim for damages. Interesting Seems Shipbuidling contracts have elements of both. They have phased payments like a construction contract. If you terminate the contract you get what you have paid for to date (which would be tricky) but they do not have a retention/snagging element that I can see. But you are correct, it seems you can return it if issues are not corrected which is not easy on a construction project - probably for obvious reasons😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 53 minutes ago, Happier diner said: I was saying you can use it without paying for it. Like stealing it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 12 minutes ago, Happier diner said: (which would be tricky) Which is why there should/will be a bank backed performance guarantee in case of termination or non acceptance ( on legitimate grounds ). Most recent one i can think of was the Honfleur being built in Germany for Brittany Ferries for €200 million. Yard went bust twice. Boat was very late. BF got the €150m paid to date of cancellation back. Yard’s parent moved boat to another yard in Norway. Completed. Boat now floating around the Med as a “cruise” ferry on a 6 month seasonal charter with option to purchase. Contract 2016, keel laid early 2019, terminated 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Like stealing it? Oops. Meant to say can't drive off without paying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted April 21, 2023 Share Posted April 21, 2023 1 hour ago, John Wright said: I’m responding to your claim that using = acceptance. That’s not correct. correct, it isn't , there'd be no elective plastic surgery if that was the case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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