Mountain Watch

[Derek Flint]

6 hours ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Well keep the snowflake off the mountain and keep the road open. My driving instructor said let's learn how to keep control of a car in a skid and off to the mountain in the snow we went. He said he did not think this would come up in the test but best thing to learn at the high speed of 9-15 mph and he was right, served me well.

I did look at starting a skid-school at Jurby. It should be essential training really. I had a bit of time back on the pan down at Silverstone a couple of months ago. Lots of fun but you realise how rusty you become.

I remember doing an 'experiment' in one of the police Range Rovers on the big car park at the grand stand when it had a decent fall of snow. Very easy just to become a passenger very quickly! 

Still got the business plan for Jurby somewhere. 

[CrazyDave]

6 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

I did look at starting a skid-school at Jurby. It should be essential training really. I had a bit of time back on the pan down at Silverstone a couple of months ago. Lots of fun but you realise how rusty you become.

I remember doing an 'experiment' in one of the police Range Rovers on the big car park at the grand stand when it had a decent fall of snow. Very easy just to become a passenger very quickly! 

Still got the business plan for Jurby somewhere. 

This is a serious question.

How does skid training work now cars all have ESC TSC blah blah and computers that kick in when you try and instinctively catch the slide?

I really believe you are right and there should be a skid pan here that everyone has to have a go on as part of a wider refresher training every few years.

[Annoymouse]

Any skid pan training won’t help when most drivers just pick the cheapest tyres possible when replacement is due.

[Shake me up Judy]

It's an idea with merits but many learner and qualified drivers would just be too nervous on a skid pan. There certainly could be some advice and tips on winter conditions built into the driving test, but the best advice is really to avoid driving on icy roads, particularly on standard road tyres. I've always been reasonably confident, but I soon learnt that once you're into a skid the weight and momentum of the car soon takes over, and as Derek said, you can quickly become a mere passenger. With little run-off and traffic coming the other way there aren't always too many options. I imagine that EVs would be a bit lively on icy surfaces (?). The secret is knowing how to avoid/minimise skids in the first place. Fortunately in our climate, it's not really a huge problem anyway.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

12 hours ago, CrazyDave said:

This is a serious question.

How does skid training work now cars all have ESC TSC blah blah and computers that kick in when you try and instinctively catch the slide?

I really believe you are right and there should be a skid pan here that everyone has to have a go on as part of a wider refresher training every few years.

They generally have an off switch. Some will also have adjustable levels, where the vehicle will have higher thresholds for engaging the systems. 

The “drifters” will often pull fuses too, for things like ABS, I’d guess that the proper skid cars may well have switches wired in for disabling the always on features. I believe the police cars that measure road surface traction do something similar. 

I’ve also seen some of the skid training cars where the rear wheels are steered by the instructor to force it into a skid. 

If you’re asking about whether the training is done with the systems on or off, I don’t know. But, I can see it being useful to make students try the same thing with and without the safety nets available. 

[Andy Onchan]

30 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

It's an idea with merits but many learner and qualified drivers would just be too nervous on a skid pan. There certainly could be some advice and tips on winter conditions built into the driving test, but the best advice is really to avoid driving on icy roads, particularly on standard road tyres. I've always been reasonably confident, but I soon learnt that once you're into a skid the weight and momentum of the car soon takes over, and as Derek said, you can quickly become a mere passenger. With little run-off and traffic coming the other way there aren't always too many options. I imagine that EVs would be a bit lively on icy surfaces (?). The secret is knowing how to avoid/minimise skids in the first place. Fortunately in our climate, it's not really a huge problem anyway.

I think a fair few instructors would be a bit worried too!

[CrazyDave]

45 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

They generally have an off switch. Some will also have adjustable levels, where the vehicle will have higher thresholds for engaging the systems. 

The “drifters” will often pull fuses too, for things like ABS, I’d guess that the proper skid cars may well have switches wired in for disabling the always on features. I believe the police cars that measure road surface traction do something similar. 

I’ve also seen some of the skid training cars where the rear wheels are steered by the instructor to force it into a skid. 

If you’re asking about whether the training is done with the systems on or off, I don’t know. But, I can see it being useful to make students try the same thing with and without the safety nets available. 

I am aware of all that.

I was asking if they teach people these days to try and correct it themselves or how to best let the electronics try and deal with it?

Its pretty pointless teaching someone how to recover a slide on a skid pan with everything turned off when they will actually be driving a car that tries to intervene, because if you correct AND the car intervenes you can end up in a whole heap of trouble.

[The Phantom]

1 hour ago, Annoymouse said:

Any skid pan training won’t help when most drivers just pick the cheapest tyres possible when replacement is due.

Very true.  No matter how your car is supposed to handle, it's power, electro gimmicks etc, there is only one bit that actually touches the road. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 hours ago, CrazyDave said:

I am aware of all that.

I was asking if they teach people these days to try and correct it themselves or how to best let the electronics try and deal with it?

Its pretty pointless teaching someone how to recover a slide on a skid pan with everything turned off when they will actually be driving a car that tries to intervene, because if you correct AND the car intervenes you can end up in a whole heap of trouble.

As I said at the end of that post, you’d likely want to demonstrate with and without the safety nets. 

Some cars will let you step out a bit more before they take over. Others will panic at the slightest whiff of instability.

I’d argue that it’s important for people to recognise what the electronics are doing for them as well. They can otherwise lead you into a sense of false security.

It’s my understanding that they’re also designed to handle the situation you’re describing, where the driver starts over correcting. They’re about both reducing the chance of losing control, and helping in regaining it. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Very true.  No matter how your car is supposed to handle, it's power, electro gimmicks etc, there is only one bit that actually touches the road. 

As the big 4x4s on summer tyres find in the snow, 4 lots of no grip is still no grip. 

[doc.fixit]

49 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

As I said at the end of that post, you’d likely want to demonstrate with and without the safety nets. 

Some cars will let you step out a bit more before they take over. Others will panic at the slightest whiff of instability.

I’d argue that it’s important for people to recognise what the electronics are doing for them as well. They can otherwise lead you into a sense of false security.

It’s my understanding that they’re also designed to handle the situation you’re describing, where the driver starts over correcting. They’re about both reducing the chance of losing control, and helping in regaining it. 

In neat ice nothing will help except tyre studs.

[slinkydevil]

2 hours ago, doc.fixit said:

In neat ice nothing will help except tyre studs.

I'm ready.

[Derek Flint]

22 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

It's an idea with merits but many learner and qualified drivers would just be too nervous on a skid pan. There certainly could be some advice and tips on winter conditions built into the driving test, but the best advice is really to avoid driving on icy roads, particularly on standard road tyres. I've always been reasonably confident, but I soon learnt that once you're into a skid the weight and momentum of the car soon takes over, and as Derek said, you can quickly become a mere passenger. With little run-off and traffic coming the other way there aren't always too many options. I imagine that EVs would be a bit lively on icy surfaces (?). The secret is knowing how to avoid/minimise skids in the first place. Fortunately in our climate, it's not really a huge problem anyway.

The idea of a skid pan is you start nervous and build confidence. Until a.skid happens you don't know how it feels. Even 30 minutes makes a huge difference 

20 hours ago, CrazyDave said:

I am aware of all that.

I was asking if they teach people these days to try and correct it themselves or how to best let the electronics try and deal with it?

Its pretty pointless teaching someone how to recover a slide on a skid pan with everything turned off when they will actually be driving a car that tries to intervene, because if you correct AND the car intervenes you can end up in a whole heap of trouble.

A skid is still a skid and the techniques to recover are the same regardless of trickery. ABS is for straight ahead braking and replicates cadence braking. Traction control will cut power when it detects a wheel spin. 

Was doing this down at Silverstone a few weeks ago with a variety of settings turned on and off. 

[Dirty Buggane]

Here we go, slight slight hint of snow frost ice close down the road system. Its like they do not even try nowadays, fuck the public we do not have the manpower or machinery. We got shut of them because managers can solve everything.

Yeah get the m off there asses out of the office and get a shovel and keep the roads open. Ain't going to happen. 

[Amadeus]