That Theory Of Evolution

[pongo]

Considering that we understand very little about anything in nature, even the nature of our own existence and consciousness, how can we so confidently assert that there is or is not a god? It strikes me as just another of man's conceits about his own importance.

 

The conceit, if you call it that, would be in inventing the idea gods in the first place. If we don't know, as you say, then why propagate the initial conceit ? There is no conceit in not believing in something which the mind of man has dreamed up.

[Slim]

Leaving aside the narrow definition of atheism, we just don't know enough to have an opinion really.

 

Doesn't that come down to how much evidence you require as proof? If there is absolutely no evidence supporting the existence of something, it seems safe to assume it doesn't exist. That's not faith, or even an opinion, it's more like a sensible conclusion. We put our lives in the hands of similar conclusions all the time.

[Evil Goblin]

Carl Sagan had a good take on the idea of not being able to prove a negative:

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

[P.K.]

wonder why their crime rate is so low but their suicide rate by firearms is so high

 

You think that people choose to end their own lives because of guns ?

 

No.

 

I was alluding, ironically, to a country where the hills are alive with the sound of gunfire...

[woolley]

Considering that we understand very little about anything in nature, even the nature of our own existence and consciousness, how can we so confidently assert that there is or is not a god? It strikes me as just another of man's conceits about his own importance.

 

The conceit, if you call it that, would be in inventing the idea gods in the first place. If we don't know, as you say, then why propagate the initial conceit ? There is no conceit in not believing in something which the mind of man has dreamed up.

 

But we don't even know that man dreamt it up in the first place. You are assuming that from what you perceive to be a rational perspective but things are never as they seem and perspectives are transitory. It does seem rather strange that however remote they might have lived from other civilisation, native peoples have always been found to be hard wired to believe in a greater power and this receptor has been located to a specific part of the brain. Perhaps it is conditioning down the generations, perhaps it is a need to feel watched over or to be a part of a greater order that makes some sense. Perhaps it is simply the way we have been designed by...... Well we just don't know do we?

[pongo]

But we don't even know that man dreamt it up in the first place. You are assuming that from what you perceive to be a rational perspective but things are never as they seem and perspectives are transitory. It does seem rather strange that however remote they might have lived from other civilisation, native peoples have always been found to be hard wired to believe in a greater power and this receptor has been located to a specific part of the brain. Perhaps it is conditioning down the generations, perhaps it is a need to feel watched over or to be a part of a greater order that makes some sense. Perhaps it is simply the way we have been designed by...... Well we just don't know do we?

 

There is very clear evidence that the nature of gods, god and religion has evolved alongside human knowledge and technology - i.e. fewer gods with fewer responsibilities as knowledge increases. That points very strongly to the idea of god being made in man's image.

 

Hard wired to be afraid of the dark and to seek to explain the unexplained perhaps.

[woolley]

Yes, possibly, and it is a nice cosy feeling to have that crutch in to lean on in hard times of sickness and pain that there is something better waiting for you in the care of a benevolent presence in a long cloak and a white beard rather than simply death and oblivion. It is in the nature of humanity to seek to expand our knowledge and to explore. Difficult as it is for most of us to get our heads around Einstein's Theories of Relativity and mind blowing as they are, they really are only scratching the surface of the nature of the physics of everything. Perhaps we know scarcely 1% and even the smartest of us just don't have the intellectual capacity to understand how it is outside our box.

[woolley]

Quite. A study of our ancestors in the days before the industrial revolution reveals people who were wise but in a different way. A closeness to nature and what appeared to be a sixth sense and oneness with existence that for all of our technological achievements we seem to have lost.

[Risso]

Atheism is the absolute certainty that there is no God. As this cannot be proven - it is a belief. Therefore, Atheism is a belief system - and every bit as ridiculous as all the others IMO.

I do find the arguments about the definition of atheism a waste of time. I know of no atheist who would claim they are absolutely certain that there is no God (of any type). I think it is obvious such a belief is vastly over confident given the huge uncertainty in knowledge and definition of the term God.

 

Is a lack of belief a belief? Does a non-stamp collector collect things? For me the words agnostic and atheist are words to to describe absence in an environment where belief in Gods is predominantly present. A bit like a hole in a p-type semiconductor. The hole in the p-type semiconductor is only noteworthy because it is rare with electrons dominating.

 

For me the landscape of belief is one filled with people claiming they know their particular religion provides a mass of details aboutGod, the supernatural, the judgement of the dead, heaven, hell etc. With another group of people saying they find these claims vastly extragant - atheists/agnostics simply aren't convinced by any of these arguments so do not follow them. Most admit that it is theoretically possible they could believe in some future religious claims in the future - ones based on evidence etc rather than claims of authority and revelation - but currently they don't.

 

I don't find that approach ridiculous at all. Especially compared to the stories about demons, evil spirits, eternal bliss or torture religions come up with.

 

Indeed. It's one of the usual approaches for the shiny-eyed brigade to launch into a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "atheist". I cannot disprove the existence of god, but I think the existence of one is so unlikely as to not waste any time thinking about it. Whatever you want to call that.

[woolley]

Agnostic surely. And atheists DO claim with absolute certainty that there is no possibility of a god.

[Slim]

Agnostic surely. And atheists DO claim with absolute certainty that there is no possibility of a god.

 

With as much absolute certainty that gravity works.A conclusion based on the available evidence. I've been quite clear about how I define my 'atheism', but you seem to be ignoring that.

[pongo]

Quite. A study of our ancestors in the days before the industrial revolution reveals people who were wise but in a different way. A closeness to nature and what appeared to be a sixth sense and oneness with existence that for all of our technological achievements we seem to have lost.

 

I would like to know some more about this study and to hear of a few specific examples. My guess would be a combination of actual knowledge, lyricism, metaphor, observation, apophenia and patternicity. Eg - on the one hand willow bark really will cure a headache - on the other hand James Randi convinced people that he could fix clocks with his mind.

 

I believe that the religious often find it difficult to understand that atheists do not by definition have any less of a sense of being part of a bigger continuity. Equally I think that some atheists completely dismiss religion and myth without understanding that it does include interesting metaphor and genuine history, though often obscured by translation.

 

James Randi convincing people that he had fixed their clocks with the power of his mind is at least as interesting as if he actually had fixed a clock with his mind. It points to what you said previously about people being wired (more likely conditioned IMO) to believe nonsense.

[woolley]

Quite. A study of our ancestors in the days before the industrial revolution reveals people who were wise but in a different way. A closeness to nature and what appeared to be a sixth sense and oneness with existence that for all of our technological achievements we seem to have lost.

 

I would like to know some more about this study and to hear of a few specific examples. My guess would be a combination of actual knowledge, lyricism, metaphor, observation, apophenia and patternicity. Eg - on the one hand willow bark really will cure a headache - on the other hand James Randi convinced people that he could fix clocks with his mind.

 

I believe that the religious often find it difficult to understand that atheists do not by definition have any less of a sense of being part of a bigger continuity. Equally I think that some atheists completely dismiss religion and myth without understanding that it does include interesting metaphor and genuine history, though often obscured by translation.

 

James Randi convincing people that he had fixed their clocks with the power of his mind is at least as interesting as if he actually had fixed a clock with his mind. It points to what you said previously about people being wired (more likely conditioned IMO) to believe nonsense.

 

Yes, that is probably spot on right up until the last three words where you ruin it. It is only nonsense from the perspective of the lives we lead today. And can we really be confident that much of the way we do live today isn't in fact meaningless nonsense? Form filling, box ticking, money shuffling, having to have the latest gizmo, crazy hype about very little, rushing around insanity when you think about it. I have stood on London Bridge and watched the bowler hatted worker ants swarming into the city and wondered what it's all about. I have travelled the tube jammed in like a sardine at rush hour and I can't imagine how people can do that every day for a working lifetime. In many ways our society today is very much on a knife edge and vulnerable to mishap much more than those before us.

[pongo]

I have stood on London Bridge and watched the bowler hatted worker ants swarming into the city and wondered what it's all about. I have travelled the tube jammed in like a sardine at rush hour and I can't imagine how people can do that every day for a working lifetime.

 

I find that all rather poignant and beautiful - the pace of life etc. I find that transience poetic. Cities are layered and full of interesting stories and legends. My idea of cities has very much been influenced by things like Koyaanisqatsi - and London in terms of Peter Aykroyd and Iain Sinclair.

 

None of which has much to do with a conversation about gods being imaginary. I also suspect that whittling a stick was the boring form filling of its day.

[Slim]

Yes, that is probably spot on right up until the last three words where you ruin it. It is only nonsense from the perspective of the lives we lead today. And can we really be confident that much of the way we do live today isn't in fact meaningless nonsense?

 

Now you're making no sense at all. The activities that make up our daily lives may be a waste of our time, but they do exist. We can see evidence of them. That's not the same thing as an undetectable deity.