What did you do in the war, Donny?

[Fred]

Donald did his national service 1959/61

 

As for crumlins

when he was called up to do his national service he applied for an overseas posting, and at that time the only place that was an overseas posting was the Camp Jurby, Isle of Man and thats were Donald done his time.

 

I wonder where all the people posted to Germany,Malta,Cyprus,Singapore,Hong Kong to name but a few,thought they were,if Camp Jurby was the only overseas posting?

[Fred]

How about since Defence has been farmed out to the UK,from that point of view we are part of the UK and Camp Jurby would have been a home posting anyway?

[manxman8180]

There's no place here for facts, I say, there's no place here for facts......

[Upstream]

Even accepting the simplistic and silly terms you represent: another way of looking at this is to say that we are are left with the victors and lucky survivors.

 

And when you look at the past 50 years. We were significantly represented by people who had actually distinguished themselves, or certainly done their bit, during ww2.

Quite. But I was making an attempt to paint the bigger picture. The overall net result on a nation.

 

But to go from the general to the specific - Tony Blair, leader of men, leader of the Nation?

 

So compare a country before and after a war. What is the difference? Or to put it in simplistic and silly terms that some of us just might understand, compare a village before and after a war.

 

I realise that war and killing is something that really only happens on the telly and we talk about down the pub and that, but lets pretend that at sometime, somewhere, it does happen.

[Rhumsaa]

can't blame him for that....

 

I wouldn't want to go and fight for an English war now

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What a load of sh1te. If you are mistakenly refering to the 2nd WW, it most certainly was not an "English War". And you will find throughout the history of the British Isles, the Manx, Scots and Irish in particular have made a very large contribution to the military strength of the British Isles. The senior regiment of foot in the British Army is also Scottish - The Royal Scots (now under threat from Bambi Blair the sh1t who typically betrays those he has sent to do his dirty work).

 

 

Seem to remember hearing that Dominic Delaney was a Para, and had seen some action as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not referring to WWII because I used the word "now"

 

I think you have gotten on a high horse over nothing

[Declan]

So a pretty fatuous statement, given that when Donny went it wasn't "now" and now we don't have National Service.

[Rhumsaa]

Not at all.... as a soldier, conscripted or otherwise, upon war he would be called upon to fight.

 

I was simply saying that if I was conscripted now I would not have any real interest in fighting. (because I'm not going to volunteer)

 

You can argue the toss about the different reasons for war and no one can see the future but from my view of the last few conflicts in the previous 20 years I can't say I would have jumped up to fight and die for any of the causes. I would also be deeply suspiscious of any future "fight for good" called upon by Bush or Blair etc....

 

Also I still stand by my original thrust of debate against crumlin that just because Donald Gelling requested camp Jurby it doesn't mean a damn thing, crumlin just likes to make a mountain over a mole hill

[Declan]

TBH I thought (from David Baddiel's book I think) that they powers that be attempted to fill the posts on the Island with Manxmen.

[Rhumsaa]

which just lends even more weight to the argument that crumlin is trying to stir

[StuartT]

Not at all.... as a soldier, conscripted or otherwise, upon war he would be called upon to fight.

 

I was simply saying that if I was conscripted now I would not have any real interest in fighting. (because I'm not going to volunteer)

 

You can argue the toss about the different reasons for war and no one can see the future but from my view of the last few conflicts in the previous 20 years I can't say I would have jumped up to fight and die for any of the causes. I would also be deeply suspiscious of any future "fight for good" called upon by Bush or Blair etc....

 

Also I still stand by my original thrust of debate against crumlin that just because Donald Gelling requested camp Jurby it doesn't mean a damn thing, crumlin just likes to make a mountain over a mole hill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's all very well carrying on about how you would object to going to a 'fight for good' as dictated by Blair or Bush. I know a lot of people who over the last 2 years have been taking trips to 'a sandy Place', and who would object to that theatre of operations, but still went because they were doing their duty. It was not about letting Blair or Bush down (Blairs a sh1t anyway), but about not letting down the man next to you, and doing your duty. They having actually been on the ground there, could tell you about the good that has actually been done there, and about how things 99% of the time are nowhere near as bad as the newspapers would like to paint. Of course that doesn't sell papers does it? But really the job should have been done properly in 92, then we wouldn't have had the further losses that were made.

 

I dare say there were many men who did not feel that WW2 was right to begin with. Certainly the attitude of appeasement in the 1930's would support that. But as they saw the importance of victory they went and made their contribution, even sacrifice willingly as they saw victory was necessary. Allow me to tell you a true story.....

 

When my Dad was at school in the late 50's and early 60's many of the lads there objected to Rememberance day, and Poppies as "Warmongering". They were quite defamatory to the memory of those who had made their sacrifice. So the headmaster of the school called them all into an assembly.

 

He began "I was a member of the Oxford Debating Society in 1934 when we debated the resolution that 'This house will not fight for King and Country". It was decided in view of the horrific losses in the 1st World War, to what seemed to little end, that no future conflict could justify the level of sacrifice that was made, to what seemed to little end, and so the motion was passed.

 

But when we saw the evil that was Hitler, and that he could not be stopped by peaceful negotiations alone, but by the force of arms only, we to a man went and joined up.........

Better men than you died that you might live in freedom to dishonour their sacrifice and name!" (And with that he turned his back and walked off stage, to total silence).

 

That's the point though. It might not even seem like a just war at the time, but in time as you begin to see more of the picture you understand, and become prepared to make your individual sacrifice. Looking back you could not deny that WW2 was not necessary. And maybe if you'd seen the mass grave, the suffering of the people in Iraq first hand, then you'd change your mind about that conflict as well.

[Rhumsaa]

1, If a person joins the army he joins to fight - his choice not mine hence why I am not a soldier.

 

2, I still say that I would not be willing to fight and die for any of the causes of the last 20 years that have had involvement from the British Army - you obviously feel you would be willing to die for some, good for you. I don't and no amount of other people dying would change my opinion.

 

3, As I said no one can see into the future hence why I have simply said I wouldn't have gone to war for the recent events.

[Declan]

1. Everybody I've known who has joined the army to "fight". They've joined to learn a trade, see the world, experience life, etc. But not to fight, they accept that as a possibility, but that is not their reason for joining. That is one of the reasons that Politicians should never be gung-ho about sending people to war.

 

2. But once you are in the position of your section being sent to war, your choice is not whether "this war is just or not", but whether your going to let the people who've you've lived and worked alongside - your mates - risk their lives without you. Could a soldier in these circumstances become a conscientous objector, if removing his skills and his pressence in the team, will undermine the efficiency and maybe the survival of his colleagues?

 

3. For the reasons outlined above you can say that as a citizen but a soldier isn't really in that position.

 

I think your tone has been rather condescending throughout this thread. You are talking about ordinary people who've tried to do what they thought was best.

[Lonan3]

1. Everybody I've known who has joined the army to "fight". They've joined to learn a trade, see the world, experience life, etc. But not to fight, they accept that as a possibility, but that is not their reason for joining. That is one of the reasons that Politicians should never be gung-ho about sending people to war.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicely put, and a fair point. Unless the person is prepared to accept the possibility that he/she may be required to go into battle when ordered to do so, any kind of career in the military shouldn't be considered.

That is one of the reasons why the regulars were so opposed to a continuation of conscripted national service - because they preferred to be a part of a small, but professional, force.

The view has long been that the regular forces in combination with the likes of the T A is sufficient to deal with the kinds of conflict and crises that have arisen in recent years - or to train conscripts in the event of a major conflagration.

It may also be worth pointing out that the days when individual countries could bathe in the glory of 'splendid isolation' are long gone. As with other nations that maintain a standing army, Britain has to be prepared to do its share in maintaining peace on a global level. There may be times when it appears that the 'share' is a bit more than it should be, but that is another subject altogether.

My only quarrel was with some of the advertising for recruits which tended to play down the possibility of having to fight by over emphasising the "learn a trade, see the world, experience life, etc." aspect of it.

[StuartT]

Very well put Declan and Lonan. Infact most of those who join the armed forces "to kill get to someone" are weeded out as unsuitable in selection.

[Declan]

Actually, my post above should begin ... "Everybody I know who has joined the army, didn't join to "fight""....

 

I wrote it one way thought it would sound better another, and ended up with somewhere in between.