pongo Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Religion is the problem No it is not. If there were no religion, people would organise themselves into killing factions based on equally abstracted and probably tenuous counterpoints. You can see forms of the same patterns of behaviour in nationalism (imaginary lines on maps), team sports and all other forms of badge wearing and flag flying. Many people have an inherent sense of wanting to be part of something which they believe in. Ultimately that invariably always means specifically not believing in or being a part of something else. You see this in all aspects of life - even down to the aggressive support of one logo vs another (eg mobile telephones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 No it is not Yes it is. Whatever groups people rearranged themselves into in the absence of religion (which of course they inevitably would) the reasons would likely be considerably more logical and rational than basing decisions on some ancient fables which totally unprovable (which is in itself mighty convenient). I know this is a huge simplification but I believe it to be basically true. You see tribal behaviour all around but the reasons for the tribe formation and the reasons for their actions are at least tangible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Yes it is. Whatever groups people rearranged themselves into in the absence of religion (which of course they inevitably would) the reasons would likely be considerably more logical and rational than basing decisions on some ancient fables which totally unprovable (which is in itself mighty convenient). I know this is a huge simplification but I believe it to be basically true. You see tribal behaviour all around but the reasons for the tribe formation and the reasons for their actions are at least tangible. You are missing the point. The underlying behaviour (that depressing urge people have to join-in) is the 'problem' (if there even is a problem). It makes no difference whether the thing around which people choose to herd themselves is 'logical' or 'tangible' (in your subjective opinion). But it is not a 'problem', or something to solve. It is just how things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Radical religious crackpots of whatever persuasion aren't a problem, they just how things are ??? Discuss..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Radical religious crackpots of whatever persuasion aren't a problem, they just how things are ??? Discuss..... Radical religious crackpots and their influence are a symptom. The underlying reasons are much more complex. If it was not religious crackpots it would be something else. These things are cyclical. 40 years ago the dangerous radicals were Maoists and Trotsyists. Someday sooner or later it will be something else. There will always be something else. It's almost like advertising or branding. You need to keep these things in context and see them for what they are. People burning flags and attacking embassies are being manipulated for political reasons. But most people whether in Cairo or Leatherhead follow an agenda which is delivered to them in terms of fairly simplistic either/or options (witness Sky News* or the Daily Express). *ETA: yesterday for the first time in probably months I watched the TV news. The main repeating item was about someone calling someone else a pleb. As if it mattered even slightly. Some people were calling for his resignation. Someone had been offended. The whole thing was complete fluff. And yet everyone was being asked for an opinion. And an outside broadcast unit. And voxpops. And a poll. Utterly trivial and yet yesterday it was the most important thing on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Common ground at last. You are correct regarding our overexposure to trivia. I also completely agree that the media overprescribe news like this which is one reason I haven't bought newspaper for some time. However even without the media, you can't uninvent the internet so comparison with radical politics of 40 years ago is no longer reasonable. Furthermore at least with a trot you can still reason to a degree. Not so with a religious nutter, he has divine right to do whatever . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Religious nutterism will go out of fashion just the same as Trotskyism. Then there will be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitantDogOwner Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 To sum up the situation: Nut job makes a crap film insulting Muslims. Muslims blame the entire nation of America for the film. The Middle East erupts with riots about Muslims pissed off at said film. Rioters kill some Embassy staff. And then a lot of Muslim people from the Middle East are killed. Other than a handful of Embassy staff, no more Americans are killed or injured. So just to summarise.....Muslim rioters end up killing more of their own people than the people they are supposed to be pissed off at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Just seen on the news, a member/minister of the Pakistani government has offered a $100,000 reward for the taking of the film makers life. It just gets better. So just to summarise.....Muslim rioters end up killing more of their own people than the people they are supposed to be pissed off at. That's usually how it works out for them, fooking fruitcakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I really would like to believe this is a passing problem. However, given that the non-problem that doesn't need solving has given us 9/11, 6/6 an Iran tooling up with nukes to have a pop at Israel and Israel now threatening a pre-emptive strike against Iran, that assertion just doesn't appear to be true. Religion has been causing problems for centuries but you would think with all the communication tools available now, things would be getting better. No matter how much you'd like this to be true, it's not. Religion still has an undeserved status and power and gives people power who would not otherwise have it. Discussing it or its ramifications ends up in very short time to resorting to arguing their beliefs that cannot be proved either way and rational discussion doesn't get a look in. Until that changes (if it ever does) it will be the same old same old. People with undeserved status will seek to keep it and rouse the rabble telling them the beliefs they hold so dear are under threat from a nasty controlling power. These same people who've been brainwashed virtually since birth and refuse to see any other way are just waiting on a hair trigger to be offended. I have absolutely nothing against religious people per se just like I don't have a problem with people being interested in, say, fishing. (Yes, that's a glib remark but it's glib to try and illustrate how little religion matters to an atheist).That's all the status religion should have. It should just be a hobby with like minded people doing something they enjoy or desire to do. Unfortunately the ill deserved status religion has raises it from a passtime or interest to a way of life and for certain religions old teachings that have no real relevance to modern life over rule everything. That way of life then impacts on the rest of us and that's where it goes wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitantDogOwner Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Just seen on the news, a member/minister of the Pakistani government has offered a $100,000 reward for the taking of the film makers life. It just gets better. So just to summarise.....Muslim rioters end up killing more of their own people than the people they are supposed to be pissed off at. That's usually how it works out for them, fooking fruitcakes. He has also offered a future $100,000 reward for the death of anyone else who insults the prophet muhammed. Yeap, thats going to help bring peace..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 has given us 9/11, 6/6 an Iran tooling up with nukes to have a pop at Israel and Israel now threatening a pre-emptive strike against Iran, that assertion just doesn't appear to be true. Religion has been causing problems for centuries No the roots of these are political and economic, not religious. Support for any essentially nihilistic tendency is not the problem - it is a symptom. The Islamic revolution in Iran was a result of foreign support for the previous regime. Foreign governments had opposed democratic reform for fear that a new government would be less anti Soviet. If you back oppression then you inevitably create enemies with long memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I don't disagree with that particular point but 'it's' being done in the name of religion. The majority of the faithful believe it to be a religious cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitantDogOwner Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 The Minister for Transport who posted the $100,000 bounty on the film maker said "freedom of expression is okay, but you can't insult the Prophet". So you can say what you like, just not agaisnt their choosen deity.....right...I think someone needs to sit him down and explain the fail in his statement. The whole affair is a joke if you ask me....film calls Muslims violent....Muslims violenty protest that statement....priceless (I am well aware that all Muslims are not represented by the rioting crazies that you see on TV.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilitantDogOwner Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 From the BBC: "I will pay whoever kills the makers of this video $100,000," the minister said. "If someone else makes other similar blasphemous material in the future, I will also pay his killers $100,000. "I call upon these countries and say: Yes, freedom of expression is there, but you should make laws regarding people insulting our Prophet. And if you don't, then the future will be extremely dangerous." At one point, he even called for the help of the Taliban and al-Qaeda in killing the filmmaker. Yeah, way to tell the world that you're all about the peace and the love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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