Sad Day For Manchester

[ScotsAlan]

Excellent post Chinahand.

 

I agree 100%.

 

What a horrific senseless act. I cant even bring myself to call this a crime. It goes way beyond criminality.

 

Pure evil nastiness.

[Declan]

I had a feeling this request would be in vain.

 

Lawnmower has a point, I wouldn't like to see the thread closed, or the debate, but perhaps we could take the anger and aggression directed at other posters out of our replies. Self-moderate if you like, just for this thread?

 

 

[The Old Git]

Of course, there is another individual involved here - Dale Cregan.

 

When compared to the two lives he's taken I shudder to think what he must be like to have committed such a crime. Nihilistic, violent, sociopathic. What a contrast to the two young women who saw their job as being protecting us from the likes of him.

 

I've been out all day - has he been found guilty already?

[Chinahand]

No, he's being held under arrest on suspicion of their murder. Are we going to argue about whether this means he's involved or not? Seems pretty pointless to me. He'll be subject to a trial with all the rights associated with it. I agree he's not been found guilty, but I never said that - I said he was involved: the contrast between him and the dead officers is still stark.

[Matilda33]

Excellent post Chinahand.

 

I agree 100%.

 

What a horrific senseless act. I cant even bring myself to call this a crime. It goes way beyond criminality.

 

Pure evil nastiness.

 

Agreed. I put the article on, mainly because I was so shocked and saddened by this news. Not to see the thread being overran with politics and arguing etc

[ballaughbiker]

I've been out all day - has he been found guilty already

No but he 'handed himself in'. Strange thing to do if you are then going to plead not guilty. However until he's convicted having gone through the proper legal process where he has the same rights as anyone else to be defended, he is innocent. There might be one or two families that don't readily agree with us though.

[We Like The Moon]

My sincere condolences. As some of you may or may not be be aware I Am married to a police officer. I send him out every day without even thinking that he will never come home, but hey we're in the Isle of Man....that sort of thing wouldn't - couldn't happen here....could it? these brave officers went to work that day, probably planning what they were going to do that evening, their loved ones would have kissed them off that morning, expecting that night that they would be home, probably two hours late as usual, as there is always some shit that holds you up and they'd be moaning about what crap they had dealt with that day....I imagine it would never have crossed the girls minds that this would be their last day in this world. When they signed up,I imagine they never would have believed this was even possible, yes being spat in the face, called a pig, the odd scuffle yes, but not this... Crime is changing, becoming more violent, to the extent teenagers in certain areas do not think twice about popping a cap in someone's ass, or carrying a knife, to use without a thought, the police however are not advancing as quickly as what criminals are...I am not In any way promoting armed officers as the norm(it will be one day, I fear), but maybe bullet proof body armour, instead of stab proof should be issued? anyway I am rambling now...my heart goes out to the families and colleagues of these beautiful, dedicated officers.

[The Old Git]

No but he 'handed himself in'. Strange thing to do if you are then going to plead not guilty.

 

People have done it before though.

 

I'm not going to comment on his likely guilt or innocence, especially after recent and ongoing local court cases.

[Ruger]

My sincere condolences. As some of you may or may not be be aware I Am married to a police officer. I send him out every day without even thinking that he will never come home, but hey we're in the Isle of Man....that sort of thing wouldn't - couldn't happen here....could it? these brave officers went to work that day, probably planning what they were going to do that evening, their loved ones would have kissed them off that morning, expecting that night that they would be home, probably two hours late as usual, as there is always some shit that holds you up and they'd be moaning about what crap they had dealt with that day....I imagine it would never have crossed the girls minds that this would be their last day in this world. When they signed up,I imagine they never would have believed this was even possible, yes being spat in the face, called a pig, the odd scuffle yes, but not this... Crime is changing, becoming more violent, to the extent teenagers in certain areas do not think twice about popping a cap in someone's ass, or carrying a knife, to use without a thought, the police however are not advancing as quickly as what criminals are...I am not In any way promoting armed officers as the norm(it will be one day, I fear), but maybe bullet proof body armour, instead of stab proof should be issued? anyway I am rambling now...my heart goes out to the families and colleagues of these beautiful, dedicated officers.

 

Gun crime is supposed to be in decline, so it would make a more difficult argument for arming all police officers. I don't believe venerable people should be left defenseless, such as the police who are putting themselves in harms way on a daily basis, but if even our specially trained firearms officers are such a danger to themselves and those around them then what are average bobbies with much less training going to be like?. Catch-22, innocent people are going to keep getting hurt either way. As you say, these two wouldn't have had a clue what they were walking into anyway so their chances of defending themselves in time couldn’t have been great, then you've got a grenade involved... no bullet proof vest will help there.

 

Sorry to refer to a DM article but, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1294974/Bungling-armed-police-fired-guns-accidentally-110-TIMES-3-years.html . This is very, very poor. Farmers, sporting, and recreational shooters go through tens, if not hundreds of thousands of rounds in the year without this happening at all regularly, and they are not professionally trained, so what’s going on with the police?.

 

It’s frustrating because I’d be more interested in the idea if we could solve the negligence and incompetence issues, as this attack may have never even been attempted if the crack-pot thought there was a chance he could be shot - and that’s a fact. He's clearly concerned with self preservation because he didn’t wait for a shoot out with armed police officers ( the cowardly prick), he just handed himself in.

[WTF]

 

 

 

 

Sorry to refer to a DM article but, http://www.dailymail...ES-3-years.html . This is very, very poor. Farmers, sporting, and recreational shooters go through tens, if not hundreds of thousands of rounds in the year without this happening at all regularly, and they are not professionally trained, so what’s going on with the police?.

 

 

 

farmers etc tend to use shot guns and small bore 22 rifles, they don't tend to shoot anything that has the capacity to shoot back or put them in danger so they are not really under any pressure or stress when shooting. . also IF you happen to be hit with a stray shotgun blast from a reasonable distance you are not likely to end up with slife threatening injury. a 22 bullet would do more damage but would probably need to hit somewhere important to actually kill anyone.

 

the police use larger bore guns, maybe 9mm, and these bullets do a lot more damage than a 22, they are also only deployed in high risk and stressfull situations so the circumstances are tense. if police had weopons as a matter of course they would become routine for officers so the stress and tension levels would be less and the actual weopon handling would be better perhaps due to familiarity. i think if the two officers had been armed then the scrote would be dead instead.

[Barrie Stevens]

The Isle of Man is I think one place in Britain where handguns can be legally owned privately. UK owners holding legal pistols and revolvers had to hand their guns in and were compensated at valuation less 10% following the shooting at Dunblane...There are a lot of handguns in the Isle of Man!

[MilitantDogOwner]

the police use larger bore guns, maybe 9mm, and these bullets do a lot more damage than a 22

 

Whats more worrying is the type of firearms that the police deploy in certain locations.

 

Walking through Manchester Airport and I noticed two armed police carrying G36 assault rifles (can't remember the variant name, but the one with the para folding stock), which fire 5.56mm Nato standard rounds. Powerful rounds which are more than capable of a "through and through" shot. Problem with that is, in a crowded airport, a hit on the intended target can pass through and hit other unintended targets.

 

Maybe their working on the assumption that anyone who would "attack" an airport maybe sporting some sort of ballistic protection (i.e. a bullet proof vest), but still seems excessive in the environment they are operating in.

[MilitantDogOwner]

i think if the two officers had been armed then the scrote would be dead instead.

 

Having been trained in close contact and vehicle contact drills, I would say that being armed would of had little difference in the outcome.

[GD4ELI]

Having been trained in close contact and vehicle contact drills, I would say that being armed would of had little difference in the outcome.

 

Here in Switzerland the police are armed - all of them. In the last couple of years in my canton alone (150,000 inhabitants) they have been shot dead before they have had a chance to draw their guns and also killed by someone driving a car directly at a policeman.

 

Also a few days ago the police in another canton killed someone making a getaway in a car, this man was not armed. In fact in today's Blick http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/westschweiz/polizei-erschiesst-bewaffneten-mustang-raser-id2040312.html the police shot another armed man making a getaway in a car.

 

My local police want their guns.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well, well, no apologies for the touch of smugness here, but just noticing the recent stream of posts relating to the political matter of whether the police should be armed and whether the situation would have been different if they had. And I am told this thread is for passing on sincere condolences. I know that if someone was murdered and I was offering my condolesnces I wouldn't then engage in discussion over how they could have lived. Inspiring anger at a time of grief is not really best, So let's lose the wailing about my inappropriateness in particular and thinking this is all in thought of the family. I've think these comments have trumped mine.

 

I do think that anyone who actually thinks the police are there to do good really wouldn't want the police to be armed. Arming them creates fear and distances them from the public by the increased level of power that can be applied over a member of the public if necessary. It's a tough issue. Many people hate how the police have guns at the airport and talk very disparagingly about them wielding these weapons. Is this what would happen if they have them in the streets or on their person when investigating a crime? And then, what could go wrong where mistakes are made?