Sad Day For Manchester

[Silentbob]

Well, there are people on the Island who have them and should not imo.

 

btw - LDV again you have shown your true colours as a cock of the highest order.

[kokorito]

was watching a programme the other day when they said how much crime has changed in the last 20 years, all down to the drug trade.

 

A Home Office report from 2007 estimated the illicit drug trade in the UK was worth 4 to 6 billion pounds a year.

 

No wonder criminal gangs are armed to the teeth.

 

I can understand why poilce might want a gun but maybe a criminal is more likely to start shooting first if they know the officer has a gun.

Do american cops ever get shot? I think they do.

Give the police bigger, more powerful guns. How did that work in Mexico? Tens of thousands of criminals, police and by-standers killed.

 

The war on drugs has been raging for 70 odd years. I hate to think how many police have been killed for the cause. Meanwhile, according to a UN report in the Independent the global illicit drug trade is worth between 1.5 and 5 trillion dollars. Currently the third richest economy in the world. And growing, soon to rival the whole of the US economy.

 

Giving the police guns, grenades, rocket launchers and tanks isnt going to solve the problem.

 

 

(maybe not directly relevant to the shootings in manchester but relevant to guns discussion)

[HeliX]

But say I had extreme disdain (which is true) for the police because they come after people who use drugs (which I think is acceptable)

 

So your problem with the police is that they enforce the law? You don't agree with the law, so the police are to blame for enforcing it?

 

Having disdain for the police seems incredibly petty, and quite frankly makes it look like you only read sensationalised headlines about police brutality.

 

Every time myself, or anyone I know, has dealt with the police, they have been nothing but courteous, polite and helpful. Even in situations where I've been "suspected" of being a person who was doing something wrong (an unfortunate coincidence of appearance), they were polite, non-threatening, and just wanted to get to the bottom of the situation quickly and effectively.

[ScotsAlan]

LDV.... maybe you could start a new thread to debate the politics.

 

I will join in. But I feel this thread is the wrong place.

[kokorito]

completely agree with Helix. I have some recent experience with the police and have to say they were all throughly nice guys. They dont make the law, they are just given the thankless, impossible task to try and enforce it, and then we call them bastards for doing it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Because I'm sorry, but it didn't occur to me that someone would ask such a worthless question, and funnily enough only a dense, short sighted person would find the image of armed police in an airport as "bad" or "distancing".

Anyways, I'm not hear to answer that question, as I don't personally understand the issue that you and your imaginary friends seem to have. Maybe its just that you are to wrapped up in sensationalist journalism about guns, and can only see a threatening side to the presence of them?.

Please don't call me dense. It's ok from anyone else, but when said by you I get all woozy with the world seeming so topsy turvy.

 

I think the answer should be obvious. When someone swaggers around with a large gun it is a display of power and force in one of its most extreme and lethal forms. That has an effect on how they are perceived. It has nothing to do with my politics, but an officer walking around without a firearm would be more approachable than one who is carrying one. Another reason why this is so is because the officer who carries the firearm also appears to have a more limited role, i.e. to deal with those who need to be managed by having a gun pointed at them. We in the British Isles are not accustomed to seeing guns all the time.

Now, I just may be totally incorrect about this. But I am pretty sure I am not. More so given the comments of people who were not socialist in their politics.

 

I'm more interested in discussing the more significant issue of keeping good people safe, without introducing a new threat to public safety, such as the potential for poorly disciplined individuals carrying something on their belt that requires a great level of responsibility.

Yes, I know what you are more interested in and keeping people safe may be more important or of sole importance. What I am saying is where there is a cost to this.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I'd be happy to see people talking constructively about what could be done to reduce the chances of this happening again

And that is constructive. But not necessarily discussing whether they would have done good in this case and at this time, IF there was some concern of the thread being read by family members. I think this unlikely and I don't mind what you post. But I am just hammering home that peoples' outrage is really just a performance.

...rather than to see an individual such as yourself demonstrating a profound lack of respect and consideration towards the victims colleagues like you did.

You aren't going to make me feel bad about it or regret it. I don't have enough respect for such people to offer consideration.

So your problem with the police is that they enforce the law? You don't agree with the law, so the police are to blame for enforcing it?

Having disdain for the police seems incredibly petty, and quite frankly makes it look like you only read sensationalised headlines about police brutality.

Oh dear, go off and read the other read as you are clearly way off the mark in understanding my objections.

I get this sort of nonsense when I also criticise the (meaningless) offers of support from the public for individuals in the Armed Forces. And Kokorito's last post mirrors yours. (Although I don't place as much responsibility on the person in the forces than I do the person in the police force).

 

It would seem that there are people who by fate are tasked with the role of enforcing the law. How tragic and unfortunate for these individuals. Is it the case? If so, then you're right, I am being completely unfair. Maybe I should be looking to find out why their lives are subject to such fates. Is it divine direction or social engineering? Can we do anything to put a stop to this seemingly inexorable drift of friends and family into the police force?

 

Moving past the sarcasm, what views are held in a State where the police are used to quash freedom of expression - speech, publication, demonstrations/protests and political resistance to State oppression, as happens today and in the past. Do we feel sorry for these poor people who find themselves carrying out such objectionable work or are the police seen as the enemy? Catch my drift? The issue is always about what they do. The silly talk of them being a bunch of unfortunates doing a thankless task is the talk of those who agree that they are doing good.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

completely agree with Helix. I have some recent experience with the police and have to say they were all throughly nice guys. They dont make the law, they are just given the thankless, impossible task to try and enforce it, and then we call them bastards for doing it.

I have met policemen and women who seems like really nice people and no doubt are in terms of their personality. I've met others who I think are dreadul people (and you immediately know why they joined up). And others on the forums have also had positive, negative and mixed experiences. And I have answered the rest of your post above.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

.

[kokorito]

my comment wasnt directed at you LDV

But its a common response when I tell people I got arrested. The manx police are bastards, dont trust them, they'll stitch you up, etc, etc. My experience was different. I had the impression they were sympathetic to the situation and were sorry for my bad luck.

Yes, in the UK I wouldnt have even been arrested. I've had police simply look the other way before but that wasnt necessarily their choice either but a policy decided by their superiors.

 

Obviously there are a percentage of police that are wankers, same as any parts of society. I'm sure not all members of this forum are the nicest of people. In general the police are good people being put into impossible, dangerous positions and some of them die.

 

So we dont want them to have guns, and from what I've seen the vast majority of them dont want to carry guns for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

 

I do agree that people's outrage is just a performance. Next week it will all be forgotten. We're all apathetic sheep who will stick our heads under the covers and just leave the status quo.Nothing is going to change.

[manxman1980]

LDV

 

I know one of the officers involved and you are a prat! The family could well read these forums and your disrespect is a terrible reflection on you.

 

The Police that you criticise are trying to protect and serve their communities. They work to uphold the law which is agreed upon by politicians which the population elects. If you disagree with the law then change the politicians and the law!

 

Take the time to look beyond the uniform and what it represents. These people were loving, caring and had their own lives to live, Their dreams and hopes were taken away by someone who allegedly is involved in drug crime. They leave behind many family and friends who are grieving for the senseless loss of life.

 

The two women chose to join the Police and to uphold the law. Neither one would have expected to have attend a 'routine' burgulary and be faced with such violence.

 

You criticise the Police so freely, but you do fail to answer the question about what you would do if you were the victim of a crime?

 

The Police are part of the system that allow you freedom of speech. If you do not like it then get involved in Politics and see how much support you get. Stop hiding on internet forums and face the public.

[manxman1980]

I do agree that people's outrage is just a performance. Next week it will all be forgotten. We're all apathetic sheep who will stick our heads under the covers and just leave the status quo.Nothing is going to change.

 

I may have thought the same 8 days ago, but no longer! The sympathy and kind thoughts have been a support to those who are struggling to come to terms with what happened to their loved ones. Hope that you never have to experience it!

 

The officers involved will never be forgotten by the people close to them and they will influence their lives forever.

[Lonan3]

Not really being critical, but although the book of condolence being opened at Port Erin for Fiona Bone is an excellent idea, not everyone who wants to will be able to get there. It would have been nice, I think, to put one on the Internet - properly supervised, of course, to prevent any stupid trolls from spoiling it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV. I know one of the officers involved and you are a prat! The family could well read these forums and your disrespect is a terrible reflection on you.

It matters not whether you know the officers nor that the family can read what I have said. My comments about the feelings of other officers stands. If it is not liked that I disagree with the outpouring of concern for the police force as a whole then tough.

 

The Police that you criticise are trying to protect and serve their communities.

No, they are not. And again, you are yet another person than fails to make a distinction between the politics of the police's role and the issue of sympathy for the family.

They work to uphold the law which is agreed upon by politicians which the population elects. If yNou disagree with the law then change the politicians and the law

You don't even have to have my politics to realise what should be obvious to you. The law is not something that the populace decides and it has little power to change it.

 

Hope you don't mind, but I have snipped out much of your reply because it relates to nonsense and politics about the people who were killed, which isn't relevant to what I commented about.

But in general, no, you can't look beyond the uniform. One the uniform is donned an objectionable role is performed and disagreeable powers are assumed. And you wouldn't make that distinction either except for the fact that you agree with the role, power, and duties. Such people might be lovely in personality and outside of work, but again, what is their role in society?

 

You criticise the Police so freely, but you do fail to answer the question about what you would do if you were the victim of a crime?

I don't, because regular posters appear and re-appear with the same idiotic questions and get an answer everytime. Why bother me with more questions when there is little interest in learning the politics. I can answer again, if you really want. But you may get part of the gist in the other thread on the Local News section. It's simple to answer, but I find such questions posed by simply people to be very onerous on me in explaining them over and over again.

 

The Police are part of the system that allow you freedom of speech. If you do not like it then get involved in Politics and see how much support you get. Stop hiding on internet forums and face the public.

Only someone ignorant of politics would believe that freedom of speech is maintained by the 'system', when it is clearly circumscribed by it. Even silly beliefs about the Armed Forces protecting freedom of speech have more merit.

It is bizarre that you call on me to get involved in politics, when a host of whingers complain about the politicians and policies, would you propose this to them?

Comprehension and ignorance of politics other than your own are giving you a misleading idea of what I was saying.

[Lonan3]

LDV - you have nothing to contribute to this thread - please go away.