Burn A Poppy, Get Arrested

[manxman1980]

Cross Ross - I also noticed that you side stepped my questions to you to bring up a Taxi driver who used to work at Sellafield....

[Max Power]

CrossRoss, I accept that in the case of Martin Luther King, Malcom X etc that there was the possibility of a government involvement. The Bloody Sunday killings involved more of a cover up after the event than a predetermined plot to kill civil rights marchers. If anything there was an IRA plot to provoke the Para's into firing on them.

 

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they are just that, theories. It doesn't matter how much anyone want's to shout about them, unless there is sufficient hard evidence it is impossible to prove them against a body as powerful as a government. Internet blogs and ramblings don't constitute hard evidence.

The difficulty is, even if you firmly believe in a conspiracy, most people have lives to get on with and need to balance the importance of what they believe with what they will achieve by taking years to expose something which may not affect them.

[CrossRoss]

The amount of people who would need to be silenced is ridiculous!!

 

 

perhaps you should make an effort to find out what derek bird did for a living before he was a taxi driver, put together a CV for the guy

his family his schooling his career and then the killing spree and his "suicide"

 

Worked at the Sellafield Nuclear plant as a joiner... Last time I checked that was not a terrorist activity!

 

I think that you will find the guy did a little more than some joinery at Sellafield, and the weaponry which was used on his killing spree was substantially more than a .22 and a shot gun, allegedly.

 

Also his sexual interests included paedo snuff films

 

You will need to look further than sources that obey D notices and gagging orders try reading the same story from different sources

 

What some regard as a reliable source turns out to be despicably dishonest journalism

[CrossRoss]

CrossRoss, I accept that in the case of Martin Luther King, Malcom X etc that there was the possibility of a government involvement. The Bloody Sunday killings involved more of a cover up after the event than a predetermined plot to kill civil rights marchers. If anything there was an IRA plot to provoke the Para's into firing on them.

 

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they are just that, theories. It doesn't matter how much anyone want's to shout about them, unless there is sufficient hard evidence it is impossible to prove them against a body as powerful as a government. Internet blogs and ramblings don't constitute hard evidence.

The difficulty is, even if you firmly believe in a conspiracy, most people have lives to get on with and need to balance the importance of what they believe with what they will achieve by taking years to expose something which may not affect them.

 

Fair points.

Not so long ago I thought the same thoughts.

[CrossRoss]

Cross Ross - If 25% of the KKK were FBI agents who were the other 75%?

 

fuckwits, lonely people, and politically hijacked people, some racists

 

 

If the IRA were "mainly" MI5 double agents then who were the rest? see above

 

I am afraid to say that I do not "buy" conspiracy theories such as these. Buy what you like, I provide the initial challenge and some knowledge after it is up to you.

 

The amount of people who would need to be silenced is ridiculous!! Wake up, criticise some people publicly, send some letters complaining about something anything, Test your understanding of the system

 

As unbelievable as it may be people will do some pretty stupid things in the name of a deeply held belief. It can also be that they are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they view as a better future for their family. Going back to the original topic is that one of the reasons why so many people volunteered for the armed services despite the potential danger? Is it not also the same reason we have seen civil unrest in countries like Egypt, Libya and Iran? The "rebels" were willing to risk their life for what they view as a better future.

Test this viewpoint in some way read an alterantive news source for a while RT.com perhaps

 

 

And if you think western Governments are so corrupt why not move to somewhere like Iran? If you look at the map around Iran and the pattern of US bases around and the invasion pattern Afghanistan - Iraq - Libya - Syria - (Iran)

it looks like western govt is moving to iran

[manxman1980]

CrossRoss - I will look at rt.com but would challenge you on how you validate the sources given here as opposed to other sources? A quick glance over the site appears to suggest it is a Russian website.

 

Without wishing to upset the Russian's that is hardly a country renowned for openness and its lack of corruption is it?

[CrossRoss]

CrossRoss - I will look at rt.com but would challenge you on how you validate the sources given here as opposed to other sources? A quick glance over the site appears to suggest it is a Russian website.

 

Without wishing to upset the Russian's that is hardly a country renowned for openness and its lack of corruption is it?

 

Imagine you are a Russian for a while looking at the British, we are utterly corrupt from their viewpoint and i agree with them

try www.presstv.ir the iranian news agency they did have a licence to broadcast in the UK but it was withdrawn, unjustifiably in my opinion

 

Try listening to George Galloway on youtube, i challenge you to fault his viewpoint. He is a gutsy gobby bastard but is factually accurate.

 

speak to people who have lived out of the country for a while, they think very differently (not AUS NZ or US, in reality this is all one country)

 

take the time to compare news stories with the BBC - it will be the BBC that looks terrible - all pomp and show with no substance, no moral fibre

[manxman1980]

CrossRoss - The sources that you cite are no less likely to be influenced by the Governments in their country of origin. Those countries have their own political and religious agendas which will influence the messages that they put out. Do you really believe that these sources are free from propoganda (political or religious)?

 

I have met many people from different backgrounds and countries and the topic has never drifted around to the alleged corruption of western governments. I do not know where you live but if the western governments are so corrupt then why have you not moved to another country?

 

Either that or make an effort to change the society in which you live. I do not for one minute believe that you will do that via manxforums though. Internet forums have very little accountability and as far as I am concerned they therefore have very little credibility. That is not to say that I will not consider other view points and in fact I enjoy the discussion (just ask LDV).

 

It is easy to sit and complain from behind a key board but a lot harder to get out there and make a stand for your beliefs.

[CrossRoss]

moaning on forums is just a part-time hobby

 

Trust me I have spent some years campaigning within the system.

 

I have stood up and spouted this stuff publicly and been ignored by the media. I have protested and gone on demonstrations. I have complained and been ignored by the relevant authorities and then accused of trumped up shite.

[hissingsid]

Hot, straight from M.R. /news/ there is trouble in Cannell's yard, Castletown, regarding a business accused of banning people wearing poppies from entering the premises, this has been denied by the owner , the police are investigating as he has lost 95% of his business in the last week. I think there are other issues and other allegations have been made but it is being taken seriously. What a day for news together with the robbery at Foxdale the headlines were almost interesting.

[Lisenchuk]

Hot, straight from M.R. /news/ there is trouble in Cannell's yard, Castletown, regarding a business accused of banning people wearing poppies from entering the premises, this has been denied by the owner , the police are investigating as he has lost 95% of his business in the last week. I think there are other issues and other allegations have been made but it is being taken seriously. What a day for news together with the robbery at Foxdale the headlines were almost interesting.

Callow's yard surely?

http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=62453

[CrossRoss]

does anybody have any opinions on white poppies as opposed to the more usual red and black ones?

[manxman1980]

does anybody have any opinions on white poppies as opposed to the more usual red and black ones?

 

I think it depends what people read into the symbolism of the red poppy. I always look at the red poppy as being that from the fields of Flanders where many people on both sides were killed or seriously wounded. I was always taught that the representation of the black centre was death, the red petals for the blood and the green leaf for peace.

[boswellian]

This thread is about poppies and remembrance day. As previously stated: We have turned into wimps that are prepared to abandon freedom for "protection". All the lives lost in world wars for "freedom". Consider what these people had to endure. For what? The wimps are out in force wanting to be protected from 'terrorists' by happily removing their clothes, being groped and scanned. They want protection from illness by repeated vaccinations. They want protection for children by permitting secret courts and D notices. Having lived through the times of the 'troubles' I can say that we all just got on with our lives. The vast majority of air travellers survived without scans etc.There are also questions about who the real terrorists were. After all we were subjected to state broadcasts. Vaccinations? Why is it that the higher the rate of vaccination in a country, the poorer the general health (allergies, chronic illnesses etc). Don't stop to ponder this - just keep accepting the brainwashing. As for secrecy protecting children. Get real. This leaves things open for the predatory paedophiles that are highly organised in all strata of society. The monied and titled have the ability to indulge in this depravity and cover their tracks. Just think how everyone bowed and scraped to JS!

 

Please, please spare me protection. I prefer freedom. I cringe every time I hear people prefering protection. What a load of wimps. You have your protection if you wish. But please allow me the freedom to choose.

[manxman1980]

This thread is about poppies and remembrance day. As previously stated: We have turned into wimps that are prepared to abandon freedom for "protection". All the lives lost in world wars for "freedom". Consider what these people had to endure. For what? The wimps are out in force wanting to be protected from 'terrorists' by happily removing their clothes, being groped and scanned. They want protection from illness by repeated vaccinations. They want protection for children by permitting secret courts and D notices. Having lived through the times of the 'troubles' I can say that we all just got on with our lives. The vast majority of air travellers survived without scans etc.There are also questions about who the real terrorists were. After all we were subjected to state broadcasts. Vaccinations? Why is it that the higher the rate of vaccination in a country, the poorer the general health (allergies, chronic illnesses etc). Don't stop to ponder this - just keep accepting the brainwashing. As for secrecy protecting children. Get real. This leaves things open for the predatory paedophiles that are highly organised in all strata of society. The monied and titled have the ability to indulge in this depravity and cover their tracks. Just think how everyone bowed and scraped to JS!

 

Please, please spare me protection. I prefer freedom. I cringe every time I hear people prefering protection. What a load of wimps. You have your protection if you wish. But please allow me the freedom to choose.

 

What 'freedoms' were the two world wars about (particulary world war one?) and what freedoms have the wars since then been about exactley? The closest to a fight for 'freedom' was WW2 which was a battle against a Nazi regime which if it had not tried to conquer Europe probably would have been allowed to continue to exist at the time.

 

As for vaccinations it was following the two world wars that we saw a massive step forward in health care and the recent paranoia over vaccinations has seen an increase in certain illnesses (TB) which had all but been eliminated. Now I have no problem with your freedom not to have a vaccination (that is your or your parents choice). I do not think you can link vaccinations with a general poorer health as there as so many other factors that would need to be considered. We now live in very clean environments due to modern day cleaning products which limit our exposure to germs/viruses and therefore we do not build up a resistance to them from a young age. There are then the issues of diet, exercise and local external environments.

 

Going back to airport security - you say you lived through "the troubles" and everyone just got on with it. That is fine, but airport security was around at that time as well. Additionally I remember that the IRA were "nice" enough to issue warnings before an attack (just to cause more panic/disruption) so they operated a little differently to the terrorist organisations we see today.

 

Really how many wars fought by the British Armed Services have been about creating more freedoms for the citizens of this country? Do not get me wrong I wear the poppy and always take the time to remember those that have died in the service of their country but I do take issue with this argument about freedom.