Burn A Poppy, Get Arrested

[quilp]

And the US right up until Pearl Harbour in Dec 1941 wanted no part in any foreign war. Don't forget that they had interests in Europe at that time too and this didn't alter their stance in 1939? They were also weak militarily and only became roused when attacked.

America had trading interests, but for the US the Far-East was its backdoor where it wanted to build very strong economic ties and heavily develop trade. Japan was upsetting this. Have you read about the history of the Pacific area prior to WW2 and the Chinese Open Door policy?

The British at that time were the main world power although they were waining, the US saw it's trade restricted by the British Empire's tariff system and would have welcomed it's demise. In fact they began to dismantle the empire as part of the conditions of the loans after the war.

But you seem to be implying that the US would have been happier to see the Japanese in former European colonies. That wasn't the case at all.

The army didn't save Britain from invasion as it turns out, but if we had appeased and not had a strong airforce or had sent the bulk of our under equipped forces to the far east to try and save our colonies there, who knows what Hitler may have done then?

It was air superiority that made Britain invulnerable to invasion but airpower was only the added assurance. What really protected Britain was its navy.

And Alan Turing/Bletchley Park too, surely?

[Max Power]

We didn't really have air superiority in numbers, British Radar played a huge part and as Quilp suggests codebreaking and intelligence.

I have read mainly about the Japanese plans for expansion prior to the war, the alarm bells were ringing but the colonial powers were ineffective. This is probably due to the threat and eventual war in Europe amongst other things.

The scenario I'm painting is of course hypothetical and just one of many things which may have happened. I really don't know how the US would have reacted, they may have just relied on their Phillipine base to have acted as a deterrent, which may have been effective? You may be right though as the Japanese did set out to eliminate the threat of US interference by attacking Pearl Harbour and the Phillipines. There again, if Britain had not become involved in the war in Europe, would Japan have attempted to attack Burma and Singapore?

 

I just find it interesting to consider what alternative outcomes may have materialised if certain things had happened differently. Such as if Poland had come to an arrangement with Hitler over the Danzig corridor, would there have been a war in Western Europe at all? Would things have escalated to the point of the genocide of German and Eastern Jews etc?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

We didn't really have air superiority in numbers, British Radar played a huge part and as Quilp suggests codebreaking and intelligence.

These things played a role. What I was saying is that ultimately any invasion force would have to get past the Royal Navy in the Channel. And that certainly wouldn't have been easy.

 

The scenario I'm painting is of course hypothetical and just one of many things which may have happened. I really don't know how the US would have reacted, they may have just relied on their Phillipine base to have acted as a deterrent, which may have been effective?

Well it was effective it making the Japan conscious of how they would conduct war against the US. One of their plans was to attack the Phillipines first.

However, once the US punished Japan for its continued aggression in China and invasion of Indo-china then Japan had to go to war.

 

You may be right though as the Japanese did set out to eliminate the threat of US interference by attacking Pearl Harbour and the Phillipines.

Not just interference. Japan wanted to remove the US as a player in the Far-East completely.

There again, if Britain had not become involved in the war in Europe, would Japan have attempted to attack Burma and Singapore?

Who knows. Seems unlikely.

 

I just find it interesting to consider what alternative outcomes may have materialised if certain things had happened differently. Such as if Poland had come to an arrangement with Hitler over the Danzig corridor, would there have been a war in Western Europe at all? Would things have escalated to the point of the genocide of German and Eastern Jews etc?

An arrangement was never really on the cards and Hitler wouldn't have been happy to keep with just some arrangement. I think the better question might be what would have happened had Britain and France been taken seriously in their treaty with Poland.

[Max Power]

Very true LDV, if Britain and France had taken a more hostile stance from the beginning of German re-armament things may have been different.

[doc.fixit]

yup!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You can take it back a step further and say that if the League of Nations had been given any real teeth, German re-armament might never have been possible on that scale.

Not a lot the league could have done were it to have had the US join. If Germany wanted to re-arm there is little to stop it really other than occupy it again.

[StuartT]

My Grandfather survived the Prison Camps of the Japanese, likewise many other members of my families have been involved in numerous wars and conflict zones both in the past and recent times. One thing I know is that whilst my Grandfather would have been saddened that a teenager didn't appreciate the sacrifice that his friends made, he would have been evern more saddened and disgusted about a culture where free speach does not exist and someone can be arrested for a symbolic gesture of burning a poppy.

This wasn't what they were fighting for, it was what they were fighting against - and it's happened anyway....

[La_Dolce_Vita]

There is nothing in his actions which show he isn't appreciation of what people did to stop an invasion of Britain and indirectly end the persecution of Jews in Germany (which I assume is what you think gratefulness ought to be shown for - as I can't think what else I'd be grateful for). He may simply have been making a (poor) statement to show how there is this unfair expectation to wear the poppy for other reasons.

 

And the concept of being grateful in regard to the potential invasion of WW2 is a peculiar one, as there are many historical episodes where we could look to a person's role or a group's role and see how much that change history. Yet the focus on the invasion seems to singularly receive such thankfulness.

[Max Power]

You can take it back a step further and say that if the League of Nations had been given any real teeth, German re-armament might never have been possible on that scale.

Not a lot the league could have done were it to have had the US join. If Germany wanted to re-arm there is little to stop it really other than occupy it again.

That's what I feel they should have done. Marshal Foch forecast that we would have to fight again in twenty years, he was out by 65 days. Lloyd George could see the unfairness of the Versailles Treaty and he also knew what the outcome would be for the future. The French and Americans wanted to punish Germany for the way they waged an unjust war and ultimately caused WW2.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't think the British or French public would want to go to war with Germany again the early to mid 30s just because it had a military again. And many people would have thought it should have had a military, if it wanted one. People thought Germany had been treated too harshly and didn't think it was Germany's or all Germany's fault that WW1 got started.

[Max Power]

I don't think the British or French public would want to go to war with Germany again the early to mid 30s just because it had a military again. And many people would have thought it should have had a military, if it wanted one. People thought Germany had been treated too harshly and didn't think it was Germany's or all Germany's fault that WW1 got started.

Again you're right, but it would have been best to have done so with the benefit of hindsight. I wonder how history would have judged us then though?

[manshimajin]

I just find it interesting to consider what alternative outcomes may have materialised if certain things had happened differently. Such as if Poland had come to an arrangement with Hitler over the Danzig corridor, would there have been a war in Western Europe at all? Would things have escalated to the point of the genocide of German and Eastern Jews etc?

One can always speculate.

 

Stalin was still smarting from his involvement (on the southern front) in 1919/21 when the Soviet Union's attack on Poland was resoundingly defeated by the Poles. As it was he (and Beria) took advantage of the German invasion of Poland to exact revenge on the officer corps of the Polsh Army at Katyn, Kalini, Kharkiv and elsewhere.

 

Would he still have invaded Poland without the Germans cooperation? Would France and the United Kingdom have honoured their treaty commitments to Poland - they did in terms of the German invasion but not in terms of the Russian one? Personally I cannot see, in any case, that Hitler would have foregone the opportunity to seize Silesia with its mineral and industrial wealth. Much of history seems to boil down to a quest for economic gain.

 

Of course in reality, as Sir Hugh Dowding said, without the Free Polish airmen, who managed to reach the UK and fly alongside the RAF, the RAF would probably (he did not use the word 'probably') have lost the Battle of Britain. So Hitler's invasion of Poland did in a perverse way help the British when they came under air attack.

[credente]

It's easy to go back and blame the events of the past. If Bismarck hadn't done such an incredible job of uniting the German states and turning the country into a major power, would any of it have happened? If Willhelm II hadn't allowed him to be shunted aside, would the balance of power have been maintained? Or if, against Bismarck's wishes, the terms after the Franco-Prussian War hadn't been made so harsh, would the French have burned so fiercely for the 'Revanche' they tried to exact?

History isn't as important for the lessons it teaches as it is for an understanding of how we came to be where we are.

[Max Power]

I just find it interesting to consider what alternative outcomes may have materialised if certain things had happened differently. Such as if Poland had come to an arrangement with Hitler over the Danzig corridor, would there have been a war in Western Europe at all? Would things have escalated to the point of the genocide of German and Eastern Jews etc?

One can always speculate.

 

Stalin was still smarting from his involvement (on the southern front) in 1919/21 when the Soviet Union's attack on Poland was resoundingly defeated by the Poles. As it was he (and Beria) took advantage of the German invasion of Poland to exact revenge on the officer corps of the Polsh Army at Katyn, Kalini, Kharkiv and elsewhere.

 

Would he still have invaded Poland without the Germans cooperation? Would France and the United Kingdom have honoured their treaty commitments to Poland - they did in terms of the German invasion but not in terms of the Russian one? Personally I cannot see, in any case, that Hitler would have foregone the opportunity to seize Silesia with its mineral and industrial wealth. Much of history seems to boil down to a quest for economic gain.

 

Of course in reality, as Sir Hugh Dowding said, without the Free Polish airmen, who managed to reach the UK and fly alongside the RAF, the RAF would probably (he did not use the word 'probably') have lost the Battle of Britain. So Hitler's invasion of Poland did in a perverse way help the British when they came under air attack.

That again raises another question in that Hitler really wanted expansion into Eastern Europe and war with Russia and Communism, there are all sorts of scenarios which could have been played out if he could have just encouraged Russia to invade Poland. Such as moving in to 'protect' them from Russian aggression.

[manxman1980]

Out if interest does anyone know what has happened to the person in the original story? Was he charged with anything or just released?